THE PRESIDENT (interpretation)
Thank you
very much, Prime Minister. Now I give the floor to those who have
put their names down to ask a question. They have 30 seconds each.
First, we will have a response on behalf of the different groups.
I call Ms Pourbaix-Lundin, on behalf of the Group of the European
People’s Party.
Ms POURBAIX-LUNDIN (Sweden)
You said some
time ago that the EPP presidency declaration, which spoke of democratic
backsliding in Georgia, a letter from 23 Members of the European
Parliament and this Assembly’s resolution on media freedom were
shameful lies. If I say that I agree with those critics, what is
your response today?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
I think that expressions used by
the EPP and other representatives of European structures have often
been based on biased, unilateral information distributed by the
representatives of the former government, who often spread lies.
I have met many leaders from the EPP and have great respect for
the party, which is the biggest. I do not think that such misunderstandings
will occur in future, and we will co-operate with the EPP.
Mr IWIŃSKI (Poland)
Mr President,
how do you view internal reconciliation in Georgia given the tension
that has existed since the last parliamentary elections? What is
your estimation of the prospects of normalisation of relations with
Russia? I put the same questions to President Saakashvili in January
because, to my mind, it is important to have a comparative approach
not only in science but in politics.
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
On internal political processes,
let me assure you once more that in Georgia only restoration of
the justice of processes is happening; there is no selective justice.
There is a huge amount of aggression in society, and it is necessary
to restore justice. What is happening in Georgia is something that
should be happening; it is being carried out by law enforcement
bodies. Mr Hammarberg, whom you know very well, is in Georgia observing
the process, as are observers from the OSCE, NGOs and civil society.
Let me assure you once more that the process is transparent and
does not resemble political persecution.
My personal dream, and that of my team, is to settle our relations
with our large neighbour, Russia. I am under no illusion that a
total restoration of relations can happen very soon, but we hope
it is possible. It is easier to get into deadlock than it is to
break it. Step by step, by using peaceful expressions, we will settle
our relations with Russia. We have already made progress in trade
and cultural relations.
Ms GUŢU (Republic of Moldova) (interpretation)
Where
are the lines of division between you, as Prime Minister of Georgia, and
the current president, Mr Saakashvili in this political cohabitation,
as we call it, given that Georgia has firmly decided on European
integration, which requires the rule of law and respect for fundamental
human rights?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
I think that we are managing with
co-habitation. My personal desire is for both the government and
the opposition to stand together. There are many problems in our country,
and we do not have time to engage in disputes. We should join our
efforts and move in the right direction.
However, co-habitation and the restoration of justice are
different matters. We should not confuse politics with justice;
those terms are often mistakenly used. There are many talented and
gifted people in the opposition. Instead of arguing with each other,
we should support each another, but the restoration of justice and
co-habitation are different matters.
Mr LEIGH (United Kingdom)
Prime
Minister, following on from your statement about justice, why did
you not follow the recommendation of the Venice Commission not to
terminate prematurely the High Council of Justice? Also, will you
bring the officials who are responsible for putting pressure on
the judiciary to book?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
Again I think that you have one-sided
information; there are still methods for the opposition to spread
lies in Europe. We have taken into account the recommendations to
a great extent – perhaps 99% – although some commas or full stops
might not have been taken into account. You do not have the necessary
information. We took into account the recommendations of the Venice Commission
and those of civil society. The Chair of the Supreme Court and Mr Hammarberg
agree that our reforms are a good step forward. The only person
who is against them is Mr Saakashvili.
Mr L. KALASHNIKOV (Russian Federation) (interpretation)
Georgia
has a law on occupied territories, under which people who enter
those territories from somewhere other than Georgia may find themselves
in prison for a year or even longer. I know people who have entered
South Ossetia and Abkhazia not from Georgia because of the physical impossibility
of doing so. They may find themselves in prison. What are you doing
to restrict the application of that law, or at least to minimise
its effect?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
Regarding the occupied territories,
we are not planning any change in the law. If you are referring
to the terminology, we have different stipulations.
I was unable to hear the question very well, but I will state
our attitude to the territories. We will continuously try to resolve
the problem peacefully and to establish relations. To our brothers,
the Abkhaz and the Ossetians, I reiterate this message: we will
restore our relations and unify our territories only through peaceful
means. So far, we do not have any tools to change the situation
overnight, but there are other means – for example, peaceful rhetoric
– which I am convinced will help us to settle the situation.
We are also trying to make our neighbours understand that
the situation is dangerous for Russia’s security. I believe that
both sides and Russia will realise that the situation is not beneficial
in the long run. I believe that our dialogue will become more concrete,
which will finally enable us to restore Georgia’s territorial integrity.
Mr BOCKEL (France) (interpretation)
Thank you for
your encouraging statement on the future of Georgia, Prime Minister. You
were talking about the rule of law, and now you have a thorny co-habitation.
Manuel Barroso has been talking about selective justice. All those
issues are placing question marks over the future development of
your country. What are all your energetic political efforts leading
to? How long will this go on for?
Mr L. KALASHNIKOV (Russian Federation) (interpretation)
There
was a mistranslation of my question, which was a specific question.
Under the law on occupied territories, a mission, such as the OSCE’s
or ours, that enters Abkhazia or South Ossetia not from Georgia
may be put in prison for two years.
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
The question was clear. The law
is not going to change. Clearly we greatly wish to fix the situation
with Russia, but it is logical that we correct the law. If someone
breaks it for the first time, we will issue a small fine and explain
to that person what the law is. That will enhance the settlement
of relations between us and our larger neighbour.
THE PRESIDENT (interpretation)
Mr Bockel
has not had a reply on energy policy. I call Mr Bockel.
Mr BOCKEL (France) (interpretation)
My question was
about the rule of law, and I finished by asking about your energy policy.
What energy policy do you have to guarantee the independence and
development of Georgia?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
The main question is a legal one,
which is why we have gathered here so many representatives of the
Georgian Parliament. Of course, the main goal is to restore justice
in our country and to establish a really independent judicial system,
to enable our citizens to live in a country ruled with justice and
by law. Therefore, we will not spare our efforts to make our judiciary
independent, to build democratic institutions.
Energy is the most attractive sector for investors in our
country. Energy independence is one of the main components of security
for any country. Therefore, we are engaged in building hydro power
stations in Georgia, and we will continue their construction in
the future. Of course, we welcome the construction of the large-scale pipelines
that traverse Georgian territory. We will continue our relations
with our neighbours to enhance Georgia’s function as a transit zone,
and that will be beneficial to the rest of the world as well.
Mr DÍAZ TEJERA (Spain) (interpretation)
Democratic society
needs to protect its minorities, whether ethnic, religious or sexual.
Given the Kutaisi case, do you think that it is a good thing for
democratic society in Georgia that ferocious attacks have been carried
out on minorities?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
We are, of course, very open to
all minority groups in our population. They are regular members
of our society. I assure the audience in the Chamber that if anything
of the sort happens in Georgia, the reaction of the government and
law enforcement bodies will be very harsh. I do not believe that
Georgia is different from the rest of Europe from this point of
view. The problem of ethnic minorities in Georgia is non-existent.
Perhaps there are some excesses of different types, but the government’s reaction
is adequate. I reiterate that our whole team and members of our
coalition are absolutely transparent and take an open attitude to
ethnic minorities. They are fully fledged members of our society,
and we will spare no effort in making them feel that that is so
in the future.
Mr PUSHKOV (Russian Federation) (interpretation)
Mr Ivanishvili,
we are delighted to welcome you to the Chamber. We in the Parliamentary
Assembly have just decided that the people of Kosovo can be represented
by two deputies from the Kosovo Parliament, without the right to
vote, but some people have no access to the Parliamentary Assembly.
Do you agree that the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia should
also have the right to be heard in this forum?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
Ossetia and Abkhazia are parts
of Georgia. Correspondingly, Ossetians and Abkhazians, along with
our delegation, have the possibility to participate in the Council
of Europe. On your specific example of Kosovo, you know that Kosovo
invited international observers and was open to international co-operation.
Unfortunately, that has not happened in our situation. We do not
have elementary monitoring, even to carry out humanitarian projects
in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which are very close. Unfortunately,
I therefore cannot see this perspective.
Ms PASHAYEVA (Azerbaijan) (interpretation)
My question
also relates to national minorities in your country, including Azerbaijanis
– the biggest national minority in Georgia. In your capacity as
prime minister, what steps do you intend to take towards settling
the problems of national minorities, including Azerbaijanis? You
have made certain promises about solving the Georgian citizenship
problems of Azerbaijanis. Has there been any progress with respect
to the realisation of those promises?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
I visited Georgia’s regions during
the election process, and I often hold meetings with ethnic Azerbaijanis
who are our citizens and with other ethnic groups. I have very good, friendly
personal relations with them. I can assure you that problems for
Azerbaijani, Armenian or any other ethnic group do not exist generally,
but I hear such questions reiterated in the Council of Europe. We
have Council of Europe obligations and have given commitments in
the Charter on regional or minority languages. Let me assure you
that our new government will do its best, so that such minorities
feel not only that they are fully fledged citizens of Georgia, but
that, like other Georgians, Georgia is their homeland. I do not
think that today’s situation is bad, but it needs improvement.
On languages, we will do our best to fulfil our obligations
and commitments to the Council of Europe. Let me reiterate that
there is no problem for national minorities or for the protection
of regional languages. There is no problem with studying the State
language; that will allow them to become more fully integrated into
society. We will do our best to carry out that process.
Mr ZOURABIAN (Armenia) (interpretation)
I would like
to ask about the possible reopening of the Abkhaz railroad. Do you agree
that that reopening would contribute to Georgian-Abkhaz reconciliation,
to confidence building and to economic co-operation in the region?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
I shall give a short answer because
I do not want to leave any question unanswered. I am sure that the
railway can be reopened, but perhaps doing so will not be easy in
the short term because many interrelated questions are involved,
such as our relations with Russia and with our Abkhaz brothers,
as well as the reaction during my visit to Armenia. It is not a
simple process, and it is very much connected with politics. It
needs time, but it will happen and all the rights of the interested
parties will be protected.
Mr MENDES BOTA (Portugal)
As general rapporteur
on violence against women, I visited Georgia last year and witnessed
the efforts, commitment and progress that have been made on that.
I hope that your government will remain committed to the cause and
will sign and ratify the Istanbul Convention as soon as possible.
That would contribute to raising awareness and could also help to
prevent acts of violence such as the one against a member of this
Assembly, Ms Chiora Taktakishvili, who was brutally assaulted by
a demonstrator as the police stood passive.
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
We have managed to discuss the
Istanbul Convention and assignments have been distributed, so in
the near future we will rectify the situation. As for the specific
case of Ms Chiora Taktakishvili, there are many questions, of course.
It is regretful it happened as it did, but there are many questions
about it. It was not directly a case of violence against women,
but a political act that had been well elaborated and thought through,
so it needs assessment. Of course, I regret that it happened, but
the law enforcement bodies reacted adequately, believe me, and the
guilty were punished.
Mr HERKEL (Estonia)
Whenever I meet
Georgian politicians from either side, they have a lot of criticism
for their opponents. I want to look at this from a different angle.
What are the biggest mistakes you or your political movement have
made in your relations with the opposition? We have heard several
examples of selective justice. How do you reconcile them?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
Thank you for your question, which
makes it clear that criticism can be heard at a general rhetorical
level about both the opposition and the ruling parties. It would
be better if you received more information about it and allocated
more time to studying the question. We do not only criticise each
other at a generally rhetorical level. I assure you that I, personally,
do not spare any efforts in my appeals to society to assure the
audience that we need to settle the situation with the opposition.
We need to establish normal relations, but that is not that easy.
Although I do not have time to explain the subtleties, let me ask
you once more to be more attentive to the question. Mr Hammarberg
is observing the situation, but if any of your respective parties
express a wish to send representatives to Georgia, they will be
only too welcome to do so. Let them collect the information on the
spot, because we thirst for your advice.
It makes no sense to start a rhetorical dispute, as the opposition
is continuing to use language that is not quite clear to address
their own population. In my personal meetings with Mr Saakashvili
and other representatives of the opposition and in all my public
appearances with journalists, I call on them to speak in clear and understandable
language to their own people. They are always speaking to you, to
the Europeans and the Americans, and in most cases their speeches
are not clear and understandable for the Georgian public. Their speeches
are saturated with a lot of lies. That is why they lost the election.
I see no wish on their behalf to change, and it creates problems
for them.
Ms KHIDASHELI (Georgia)
I want to make
a short comment on the issue raised by the EPP representative about
the media resolution. As a member of the Georgian delegation to
the Assembly, let me say that we deeply regret the resolution passed
on media freedom in Georgia. The problem is that on 7 November 2007, Imedi
TV was raided by police special forces.
The PRESIDENT (interpretation)
Ms Khidasheli,
I am sorry, but you are supposed to be asking a question. You are
not here to make a statement; you should just ask your question.
Ms KHIDASHELI (Georgia)
After the elections,
the police-raided TV company was returned to its original owners.
If that is the route the Georgian Government plans to take in restorative
justice, will it restore justice in thousands of cases of deprivation
of property for the citizens and businesses of Georgia? What tools
will the government use in implementing restorative justice?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
I think that was more of a commentary
than a question. I can explain further, however. Of course, there
were mistakes when the Council of Europe adopted a resolution telling
the government that we were damaging the interests of the media,
extending pressure and so on. The outstanding example of the TV
channel Imedi in 2007 is a concrete illustration of how the previous
Government tried to tell lies to the international community. On
7 November 2007, a peaceful rally was dissolved by the Government
who burst into the private independent television company. Since
then, the channel solely served the interests of Saakashvili. When
our government came to power, we returned the company to its legitimate owner.
It was freed from the terrorist act perpetrated a few years ago
and justice was restored. Instead of thanks from the Council of
Europe, we received the resolution that has been mentioned. That
shows that the art of lies was mastered by the previous government,
who misled you so that you took that resolution. That is why I insist
that the information should be double checked – on both sides –
when the Council of Europe decides to take a resolution.
Mr VAREIKIS (Lithuania)
We are in the
Council of Europe, which is a human rights organisation, and we often
have practical questions. For example, today we will be discussing
the Magnitsky list, which is an issue of human rights. What do you
think about problems such as Magnitsky, Tymoshenko and the authoritarian regime
in Minsk? What is your official opinion and what is your country’s
opinion?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
Of course, I am well aware of those
problems, including the Magnitsky list. I know what is going on
in Ukraine, too, but I know much better what is going on in my country and
what was going on there. Human rights were totally violated during
the previous Government’s tenure. When we talk about cohabitation,
we must remember the cases of selective justice. Human rights were
totally violated under the conditions of the Saakashvili regime.
The situation became very grave in this respect.
As for Ukraine, we do not have the right to criticise other
countries that are coping with a heavy legacy which ended only recently.
I reiterate that human rights were totally violated in our country,
but that our government will try its best to restore justice in
this sphere. Our government will do everything in its power to bring
itself closer to “old Europe”, the family to which we wish to belong,
and our main task is the protection of human rights. Georgia is
working to eliminate such issues entirely by improving the judiciary,
the mass media and so on. The protection of human rights is the
most European of tasks and we are fully committed to it. We will
not spare any effort in seeking to achieve it.
Ms VON CRAMON-TAUBADEL (Germany) (interpretation)
Recently I had
an opportunity to travel through your country and my impression
overall was very positive: the progress was visible. What post-cohabitation
alternative are you developing to ensure that you can actually implement
your political goals in a more ambitious way?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
In six months it is possible, although
very difficult, to accomplish enough to boast about. However, it
is excellent that you saw a lot of progress during your trip, and
I thank you for your comments. I assure you from the government
side that there is no problem with cohabitation, as some concrete
examples have shown. We regard it as one aspect in the process of
restoring justice, so it is good that you noticed progress in that
respect. To this day, however, not one ambassador has been endorsed
by our president – that is how he is hindering the process. This
man ruled the country but is now blocking developments. He is doing
all he can to avoid enabling the courts to become independent. I
would again invite all members to come to Georgia so that you can
see it all with your own eyes and be witnesses to the process.
Mr A.K. TÜRKEŞ (Turkey)
Georgia became
a member of the Council of Europe in April 1999, at which point Georgia
assumed the commitments attending membership. One of those commitments
was to ensure the return of the Ahiska Turks to their homeland in
Georgia. So far, of a total of 5 841 applications, only 863 have been
granted repatriation status. What are your plans regarding the repatriation
process for the Ahiska Turks? Will you facilitate and accelerate
the bureaucratic procedures and remove the deadline for applications?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
In all my meetings today and yesterday
I mentioned our obligations and commitments, but I would add now
that on 27 March the new government decided to accelerate these
processes to the maximum extent. More than 800 applications have
been dealt with already but we will be able to accelerate this process
in the next two years so that we can establish who has the desire
and basis in fact to receive Georgian citizenship through this accelerated
procedure. By all means we will fulfil our obligations to the Council.
Mr M. JENSEN (Denmark)
As you will know,
in 2010 the Committee of Ministers adopted its recommendation on
combating discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation and gender
identity. In a recent reply to the Council of Europe regarding implementation
of the recommendation your government, with great honesty, acknowledges:
“There are persistent challenges present which need to be further
addressed”. What steps is your government taking to address these
challenges, and does it have an action plan to implement the Committee
of Ministers’ recommendation?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
We are working on legislation to
combat discrimination and will adopt it in the near future. As for
the current situation and our team, I assure you that our law enforcement bodies
react to any violation whether it be discrimination on grounds of
sexual orientation or anything else. That is how it has been and
how it will be. I assure you that we are working on a law against
discrimination and that we will adopt it in the near future.
Mr GIRZYŃSKI (Poland)
The former President
of Poland, Lech Kaczyński, who tragically died three years ago in
Russia, loved Georgia very much. He risked his life for Georgia
during the Russian aggression against Georgia in 2008. You do not
like your president, Mr Saakashvili, but you seem to like the President
of Russia, Mr Putin, very much. Do you think that Putin was responsible
for the ethnic cleansing of Georgia in 2008? What are your plans
for the independence of Georgia? Do you want to defend its independence
together with Mr Saakashvili?
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
I will inform you about my approach.
Politics should not be based on love between and among people, but
heads of government should love all nations and all countries and
call everything by its proper name. I am very grateful that you
have just reminded us of Mr Kaczyński. I was very concerned about
that tragedy; we have always considered Poland to be one of our
friends. As for territorial integrity and Russia, Saakashvili has
made his own mistakes in this process. Our people have their own demands
and questions for their government regarding the mistakes that were
made. If Saakashvili had not made such mistakes it would have been
very difficult for this aggression to be carried out. As for your
question to me, I always try to act correctly. Your rhetoric, like
that of Saakashvili, seeks to draw me into dispute. I have no desire
to engage in a dispute. Our country received the treatment that
it did because of Saakashvili’s rhetoric. We are attempting now,
so far as possible, to act diplomatically to correct the mistakes
that were made. We will do our best to express ourselves correctly
in our words and actions. I assure you that we can settle the matter
in this manner.
Mr AGUZAROV (Russian Federation) (interpretation)
Prime
Minister, we regard your winning of the October 2012 election as
a great achievement for democracy in Georgia. We understand how
difficult your life is being made by what you inherited from the
previous regime, but we hope that Georgia will carry out the necessary
democratic reforms, as well as the other specific tasks that you
have set yourself, and will rise before not only Europe, but the
whole world as a worthy bearer of the torch of democracy.
Georgia considers Abkhazia and South Ossetia as part of Georgia,
but the Abkhaz and Ossetians consider them as their lands. The problem,
however, is not with the land itself; it is that Abkhazia and South
Ossetia do not want to be part of Georgia. Understanding that well,
Georgia began aggression against South Ossetia in August 2008. The
new Georgian Government is now repairing its relationship with the
Russian Federation, but can rapprochement with Russia fit comfortably
with Georgia’s announcements on South Ossetia and Abkhazia, or is
there no turning back on that?
THE PRESIDENT (interpretation)
I am sorry
to interrupt again, but I must remind speakers that this is an opportunity
to ask questions. Each of you has 30 seconds. You do not have the
right to make a statement.
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
That was a brief historic overview
of our country. Let me remind you that the Georgian Government made
many mistakes over the past 20 years regarding our Abkhaz and Ossetian
brothers, but mistakes were made on both sides. Those wounds need
time to heal. Our aim is not to repeat such things and we do not
even consider the possibility of using force. We will use public
diplomacy and peaceful means. I always assure our Abkhaz and Ossetian
brothers that we will never apply force or violence, because we
need patience and peace to achieve Georgia’s main aims: reviving
the economy; developing democratic institutions; and improving relations
with the Abkhaz, the Ossetians, Europe and Russia. We need time
and we need to take the right steps. Only after that can we speak
of historical progress. We need questions from all sides, because
it will otherwise be difficult to make any decisions. We want to
make Georgia democratic and economically strong. I am sure that
our Ossetian and Abkhaz brothers understand that we will restore
our united country.
Mr XUCLÀ (Spain) (interpretation)
What form will
the local government reform process take? You won the elections,
you have the majority, and you have to act with the generosity of
someone who holds such a majority. You have to work towards reconciliation
in your country and lead a mature democracy in which both the majority
and the minority feel represented in the same political system.
Mr Ivanishvili, Prime Minister of Georgia (interpretation)
The current situation with self-government
organisations is chaotic. I assure you that the Government has never
intervened in the process. That is not our strategy. The misunderstandings
and chaos were the reason for the situation that I tried to portray,
and it is one of the main problems of our country. The reaction
of law-enforcement bodies to the self-governance violations was
strict. Eleven criminal cases were filed and the reaction was adequate.
As I understand it, the process has changed from being active to
passive and is now extinguished.
The answer is easy. Instead of intervening, we are working
hard on the new structures and laws of self-governance. The draft
law has already been published in the regions for further discussion.
We are trying to bring it closer to the European model, because,
under the previous Government, self-government was absolutely non-existent
and one person was ruling the country. We will maintain whatever
was good in the previous system, but this reform is the most challenging
for me and my government. We are trying to change our society to
increase political culture, which is currently lacking, and that
is under development. Georgia has an ancient culture, but we are
not really experienced in self-governance. We are therefore attaching
great importance to local self-government organisations, and we
will teach people on the spot how to control their own government.
We will teach the population that, unlike under the previous government,
this government is the public’s servant. The process is not at all
simple and we fully realise that. We are trying to implement innovative
and new reforms in this field.
Finally, I think the draft law is good enough, but we have
a whole year for discussion and feedback. We want to establish real
self-government institutions in the regions and will endow them
with the maximum possible rights. That is our strategy. Your question
was about the situation today. Such self-government organisations were
previously non-existent in Georgia. Whatever was there was artificial
and superficial. We are striving to establish real self-governance.
THE PRESIDENT (interpretation)
We must
now conclude the questions to Mr Ivanishvili. Thank you for coming
to Strasbourg, for giving us your statement and for making yourself
so available for questions. I must apologise to colleagues who were
not able to ask questions.