THE PRESIDENT (translation)
Sir, we
have greatly appreciated your speech, which bears witness to the
interest which you take in the Council of Europe’s activities. It
also gives us an opportunity to reflect on our future, which will be
largely determined by our geographical location. I also thank you
for agreeing to answer the numerous questions tabled by the members
of this Assembly.
You will remember that the Assembly instructed me at its first
sitting, to decide on the order of questions. In doing so, I have
tried to concentrate on matters of interest primarily to the Council
of Europe as a whole, rather than on questions relating to the EEC
or to bilateral individual issues.
It is nonetheless clear that, in so doing, I have run the
risk of failing to satisfy some, perhaps most, of our colleagues
– which was inevitable, in view of the limited time available.
Thirty questions have been tabled in writing. They have been
grouped under eighteen headings, for each of which the procedure
will be as follows:
I shall start by asking Mr Barre to answer each group of questions.
Colleagues who have put questions on this subject will then have
a maximum of one minute for supplementary questions.
I would now ask you, sir, to answer the first group of questions,
dealing with the impact of the Iraq-Iran conflict on Western countries’
relations with the belligerents, on oil supplies and on the need
for co-operation in the energy field.
These questions Nos. 1, 20, 23, 25, 28 have been tabled by
MM. Hanin, Jessel, Kershaw, Aano and Papaefstratiou. These questions
are as follows:
“Question No. 1:
Mr Hanin,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic:
a. how he views the
repercussions on Europe of the conflict between Iraq and Iran, what,
in his view, will be the effects of that conflict on oil supplies
and therefore on energy policy, and, in particular, whether he thinks more
concerted action and greater co-operation between European countries
in the fields of both nuclear energy and alternative sources of
energy are necessary;
b. what measures he
thinks need to be taken and what mechanism envisaged in order to
agree on and implement a European programme of co-operation.
Question No. 20:
Mr Jessel,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic whether,
in the light of the war between Iraq and Iran in recent days, the
French Government intends to continue to authorise the supply to
Iraq of materials from which nuclear weapons could be made.
Question No. 23:
Mr Kershaw,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic what arrangements
are in effect to ensure the best consultation and co-operation between
the Western allies concerning, in particular, the Middle East and
the conflict between Iraq and Iran.
Question No. 25:
Mr Aano,
Considering the imminent danger to regional and even global
peace entailed by the introduction of nuclear arms into the Middle
East and in the light of the unreliability and lack of restraint
in that area shown by the recent eruption of hostilities between
Iraq and Iran, and in view of the limited power vested in the International
Agency for Nuclear Energy for preventing the production of nuclear
arms,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic if the French
Government will reconsider its agreements with Iraq for the supply
of a nuclear power station and enriched uranium which provides the
potential for producing nuclear arms.
Question No. 28:
Mr Papaefstratiou,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic whether he
considers that a meeting between the oil-producing and oil-consuming
countries to try and find a solution to the problem of determining
the price of oil is possible in the immediate future, since it is
obvious that this problem represents a threat to the economies of
the countries concerned and, in addition, leads to an increase in
the rate of inflation.”
Mr Barre has the floor.
Mr Barre, Prime Minister of the French Republic (translation)
Mr Hanin has asked for my views on the repercussions of the
Iran-Iraq conflict on energy supplies and energy policies in the
countries of Western Europe.
First of all, I should like to remind you briefly of Iraq’s
status as an oil-producer and as Europe’s second supplier, producing
175 million tonnes a year. In Western Europe, France which imported
24.5 million tonnes, or approximately 25% of her total imports,
from Iraq in 1979, is the most affected. Italy imported 22 million
tonnes, or nearly 20% of her total oil supplies. The Federal Republic
of Germany imported 2.5 million tonnes.
By contrast with Iraq, Iran plays a minimal role, since her
exports amount to 500 000 barrels a day, or 25 million tonnes a
year, to the developing and socialist countries.
The cessation of exports from Iran and Iraq represents a major
shortage on the world market. Nonetheless, crude oil from Iraq can
be exported via the Mediterranean: approximately 1 million to 1.5 million
barrels a day, or 50 to 70 million tonnes a year.
I would point out, moreover, that there is currently a surplus
of some 2 or 3 million barrels a day on the world market, and that
our countries possess major reserves, more than 100 000 days.
Assuming that it remains limited in time and space, the conflict
thus poses no immediate threat to oil supplies in Western Europe.
Nonetheless, freedom of movement must be guaranteed for shipping
in the straits of Hormuz. The present conflict underlines the precarious
nature of Western oil supplies and thus the soundness of that policy
for energy saving and the development of new energy sources of which
I spoke a few minutes ago.
I would particularly ask you, ladies and gentlemen, to bear
in mind France’s nuclear programme, which will supply nearly 25%
of the country’s electricity requirements by the end of 1980. I
would ask you to consider this programme in the light of what I
have just said.
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
Thank you,
Mr Barre. I call Mr Hanin, for one minute.
Mr HANIN (Belgium) (translation)
Mr President,
I shall not use this minute. I am satisfied with Mr Barre’s reply,
which has given me the information which I asked for. Mr Barre did
not answer the second part of my question, on initiatives which
France might take in this conflict, but the action which the French
Government has taken is in itself a satisfactory and sufficient
answer.
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
We now come
to the second group of questions Nos. 2, 21 and 22, tabled by MM. Kershaw,
Munoz Peirats and Bacelar on France’s attitude to enlargement of
the EEC. I will now read these:
“Question No. 2:
Mr Kershaw,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic if he will
define the attitude of France towards the enlargement of the EEC.
Question No. 21:
Mr Munoz Peirats,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic to define
the French Government’s position on the subject of Spain’s accession
to the European Community and, in particular, to state whether it
intends to keep to the timetable according to which the negotiations
and ratification procedures were to be completed in 1983.
Question No. 22:
Mr Bacelar,
Recalling that Portugal has applied to join the EEC, that
the admission process is now taking its course and is scheduled
for completion by 1983, but that there have recently been rumours
about a postponement because of the attitude of the French Government,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic what is the
present state of the question; whether France considers that the
Portuguese application to accede, which was made first, and the
Spanish request form a single brief and should be treated together,
and that they require decisions to be made simultaneously, or whether,
on the contrary, he is prepared to give separate consideration to
the Portuguese application, since the two applications raise quite
different problems.”
The Prime Minister has the floor.
Mr Barre, Prime Minister of the French Republic (translation)
France has clearly shown that she favours enlargement of the
Community to include Spain and Portugal. As long ago as 1977, the
President of the Republic and the French Government expressed their
views clearly on this subject. Negotiations have been opened, which
must take account of the obvious differences in the situation of
the two countries, and particularly of differences in their development
levels.
Last June, the French Government expressed the view that these
negotiations could not be successfully completed until two problems
had been solved: the problem of the Community’s agricultural policy
and the problem of Community finance, in other words, the problem
of the Community’s own resources, which you and I, Mr President,
remember with particular clarity.
This is a common-sense observation and is in no way intended
to mark a change in the French Government’s policy on this matter.
It simply serves as a reminder that, when temporary agreement was
reached on the British contribution to the EEC in Luxembourg last
May, it was agreed that both the common agricultural policy and
the financial contributions paid by member states would require
careful study.
Ladies and gentlemen, how can we negotiate with two non-Community
countries if we ourselves have not decided on what terms to receive
them in two such fundamental areas of Community life as agriculture
and finance?
We know, for example, that Spain’s accession would lead to
a major increase in the Community’s agricultural expenditure. How
are we to finance this agricultural expenditure? This is the point
which I made to the Spanish Prime Minister, when I visited Madrid,
and this is the point which the French Government made to the Prime Minister
of Portugal, Mr Sa Carneiro, when he recently came to Paris.
We are by no means hostile to enlargement. Still less are
we hostile to Spain and Portugal – our attitude simply reflects
our desire to do things properly, where the Community is concerned.
Mr KERSHAW (United Kingdom)
Does not
the Prime Minister consider that any delay in the enlargement of the
Community will be a grave disappointment to the countries concerned
and may result in anti-Community sentiment in those countries?
Mr Barre, Prime Minister of the French Republic (translation)
I am not convinced that our desire to do things properly will
give rise to anti-Community feeling in these countries, though it
may be used as a pretext to promote anti-Community feeling. Obviously,
however, it is not in their interest to enter the Community without knowing
what this involves.
We feel that countries joining the Community and accepting
its principles, rules and obligations should be fully aware of what
they are doing, so that later they will not be obliged to pass on
burdens which they cannot support.
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
We shall
now consider the third group of questions, concerning the fight
against terrorism and the non-applicability of statutory limitations
to war crimes.
These questions Nos. 3, 24, 27 and 29, which will be answered
together, have been tabled by MM. Calatayud, Stoffelen, Calamandrei
and Toker.
“Question No. 3:
Mr Calatayud,
Considering the upsurge in terrorism, which is becoming more
and more indiscriminate and senseless;
Considering that, given the evidence of links existing between
the terrorists operating in different European countries, there
is a clear need for the countries of Europe to intensify their co-operation
in the fight against the common enemy, which implies, among other
things, the creation of a ‘European legal area’;
Recalling the efforts made in this field by the Council of
Europe, within which the European Convention on the Suppression
of Terrorism of 27 December 1977 was prepared, and whose Assembly
has called a conference on tasks and problems in the defence of
democracy against terrorism in Europe, to be held in Strasbourg
next November,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic what is France’s
attitude on this subject.
Question No. 24:
Mr Stoffelen,
Considering that the Council of Europe in 1974 concluded a
European Convention on the Non-applicability of Statutory Limitation
to Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes;
Considering that France was the first Council of Europe member
state to sign that convention and that France was followed by the
Netherlands in 1979;
Considering that the Netherlands will now soon complete its
ratification procedure;
Referring to Recommendation 855 (1979) of the Assembly,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic whether France
will now soon ratify the European Convention on the Non-applicability
of Statutory Limitation to Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes.
Question No. 27:
Mr Calamandrei,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic whether he
considers that the responsible French authorities have given, and
are giving, the other member states most directly affected by terrorism
the necessary and greatest possible assistance in combating and
eliminating terrorist organisations.
Question No. 29:
Mr Toker,
Noting that in recent years France has become a centre for
terrorist operations against Turkish diplomats, that none of the
terrorists has been apprehended or even identified yet, that no
action has been taken against the terrorist organisation which has
openly claimed responsibility for these acts, and that, clearly
encouraged by this situation, terrorism against Turkish diplomats,
beginning with the attack which cost the life of the Turkish Ambassador
in Paris, has taken on disturbing proportions and is occurring with
alarming regularity;
Considering the importance which the Council of Europe attaches
to the fight against international terrorism,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic what measures
the French Government plans taking to prevent these acts and prosecute
those responsible.”
I call Mr Barre to answer this group of questions.
Mr Barre, Prime Minister of the French Republic (translation)
Mr President, the first question put to me concerns terrorism.
Terrorism is currently a threat to all democratic nations,
which must thus take the necessary action to combat it effectively.
It was for this purpose that the Council of Europe prepared
the convention of 27 January 1977, a convention signed by France
on the very day of its adoption.
France feels that the action taken against terrorism should
be energetic, but should also respect human rights, and particularly
the right of asylum.
This is what we said at the time when we declared our special
interest in the work being done in this field.
At the moment we are waiting to see how work progresses in
the European legal area.
As for the non-applicability of statutory limitations to war
crimes, this question is covered by Recommendation 855 on the statutory
limitation of war crimes and crimes against humanity adopted by
the Council of Europe on 2 February.
The Committee of Ministers sent this recommendation to the
European Committee on Crime Problems for an opinion. In its opinion,
the European Committee noted that Council of Europe member states
were divided on the prospects for signature and ratification of
the European convention of 25 January 1974. It also noted that the
procedures laid down in the various European conventions on co-operation
in criminal matters provided an appropriate and sufficient framework
for the co-operation and improvements advocated by the Assembly.
In the light of this opinion, the Committee of Ministers –
which, of course, represents all the member states of the Council
of Europe – did not think it necessary to recommend the adoption
of special measures at European level.
When Recommendation 855 was discussed by the Committee of
Ministers, the French Government referred to the European convention
of 25 January 1974 and recalled the special interest which it had
always shown in the punishment of war crimes and crimes against
humanity.
Thus France adopted, on 26 December 1964, an Act on the non-applicability
of statutory limitations to crimes against humanity, and concluded,
on 2 February 1971, an agreement on judicial competence in the punishment
of war crimes with the Federal Republic of Germany, and was the
first country to sign the European convention of 25 January 1974
on the non-applicability of statutory limitation to crimes against
humanity and war crimes.
These are the points which I wished to make in replying to
the questions put on these two issues.
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
Thank you,
Mr Barre. I call Mr Calatayud to put a supplementary question.
Mr CALATAYUD (Spain)
(spoke in Spanish; as no translation of the
speech in one of the official languages or additional working languages
has been supplied to the Secretariat by the speaker, the speech
is not published here, under the terms of Rules 18 and 22 of the
Rules of Procedure).
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
Mr Calatayud’s
question concerns the French Government’s attitude to the attack perpetrated
on Jews in Paris.
Mr Barre, Prime Minister of the French Republic (translation)
Mr President, the French Government has adopted a wholly unequivocal
attitude to the racist incidents in Paris and is resolutely determined
to pursue any organisations which engage in reprehensible actions
of this kind against the Jewish community in France.
I would remind you that a few days ago it banned an organisation
which had set out to revive the theories and practices of Nazism
in France.
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
Thank you,
Mr Barre.
This brings us to Question No. 4, tabled by Mr Pignion, which
concerns the non-ratification by France of Article 25 of the European
Convention on Human Rights. The question reads as follows:
“Mr Pignion,
Recalling that many questions have already been asked of the
French Government by members of the French National Assembly concerning
the non-ratification by France of Article 25 of the European Convention
on Human Rights;
Challenging, firstly, the argument that more time is needed
to examine the consequences of such ratification upon French domestic
law; since it would appear that seven years are ample, and, secondly,
the statement that no disadvantage was suffered by French citizens
who can rely in their defence on the treaties ratified by France,
for this is not always true since some courts accord precedence
to ordinary laws enacted subsequent to certain treaties;
Observing, on the contrary, that the ratification of Article
25 could in no wise be disadvantageous to French citizens but rather
could be beneficial,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic whether he
would support, with the same degree of conviction as he did the
setting up of a European legal area, the enlarging of the scope
of freedom in Europe, and particularly in France, by the ratification
of Article 25.”
I call Mr Barre to answer this question.
Mr Barre, Prime Minister of the French Republic (translation)
Mr President, I should like, first of all, to remind you that
our constitutional and judicial structures are so organised that
individual petition already functions fully in French law. In fact,
under Article 55 of the Constitution, treaties – including the European
Convention on Human Rights – take precedence over national legislation
and are applied directly by our courts. Persons involved in legal
proceedings are thus entitled to cite the convention before administrative
and other courts, which have in fact applied the provisions of the
convention on various occasions in recent years.
This means that individuals always have an effective legal
remedy and are not obliged to follow the procedure provided for
in Article 25 of the convention. As a result, the problem in question,
particularly under the present Constitution, has never been as urgent
as has on occasion been suggested.
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
I call Mr Pignion
for a brief supplementary question.
Mr PIGNION (France) (translation)
Mr President,
I cannot say that Mr Barre’s reply has wholly satisfied me, but
the European legal area was referred to a few minutes ago, and I
preferred, as a French parliamentarian, to put this question, rather
than to have it raised by one of our colleagues. Since this is a
matter which comes up occasionally in committee and elsewhere, I
think that it might also be raised again at national level.
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
We shall
now consider the fifth group of questions, concerning France’s policy
on Portuguese and Turkish immigrants. These questions Nos. 5 and
26, which have been tabled by MM. Bacelar and Üstünel, will be answered
together. I will now read them:
“Question No. 5:
Mr Bacelar,
Recalling that there are over a million Portuguese migrant
workers in France, the majority of whom have long been settled there
and have made a considerable contribution to the French economy;
Noting that the French economy has for some years been experiencing
difficulties, particularly in the employment and inflation fields,
that certain recently enacted laws raise fears that the possibility
for this sizeable part of the Portuguese population to continue
to reside in France may be jeopardised, and that, if these people
were to be sent back, Portugal would be faced with an insurmountable
problem,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic whether fears
on this score are justified and whether he can give assurances in
the context of Franco-Portuguese relations, which are particularly
good and friendly.
Question No. 26:
Mr Üstünel,
In view of the recent abrupt decision of the French Government
to impose a visa on Turkish nationals as of 5 October 1980, in violation
of at least the spirit of the agreements which are the raison d’être
of the Council of Europe, and with hardly any prior notice,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic whether the
intention of his government is to isolate from Europe and push further
into a dangerous situation, with a recent example in the Middle
East, a country which has been part of Western alliances for over
thirty years, causing wide public resentment against the West and further
complicating the already difficult task of the present authorities
that are seeking Western solidarity in order to re-establish a working
democracy based on the principles of freedom and human rights, and
also for how long his government envisages to apply this visa and
if they are planning to apply the same restrictions to citizens
of other member states, like Spain and Portugal, which send workers
to France.”
I call Mr Barre to answer this group of questions.
Mr Barre, Prime Minister of the French Republic (translation)
Mr President, with regard to Portuguese emigrants, we have
in France a very large Portuguese colony, enjoying all the rights
of French citizens, to which we have extended a warm welcome and
which has frequently integrated very rapidly in France. At no stage have
we considered taking action against immigration from Portugal.
It is true that France has revised her immigration policy.
Why? Because we are no longer in that period of economic growth
and full employment which lasted two decades and which saw the arrival
of more than two million foreign workers in France. I would, however,
remind you, ladies and gentlemen, that France, while calling a halt
to immigration, has never sought to expel those foreign workers
who came to France earlier and contributed to her development. Nor
does she intend to do so in the future, since she owes a debt of
gratitude to those who have helped to build her prosperity. We do
not look on foreign workers in France as slaves, to be taken in
and thrown out, as the economic situation dictates.
France may have adopted new regulations on immigration from
Portugal, but I would remind you that, on 27 September 1979, the
President of the Republic wrote to the President of the Republic
of Portugal in the following terms:
“I
hereby confirm, Sir, that in view of Portugal’s application for
membership of the European Economic Community, it has been decided
that the residence and work permits of Portuguese residents in France will
in the future continue to be renewed on the same liberal conditions
as in the past, in other words, that the new regulations on aliens
will not, in fact, be applied to them.
I take this opportunity of paying tribute to the high
quality of the work done by the Portuguese who live in France and
of assuring you that their attitude and qualities have earned them
the respect and affection of the French people.”
As for migrant workers from Turkey, the French Government
has decided to reintroduce visas for Turkish nationals.
I would remind you that the French Government notified the
Government of Turkey that it was provisionally suspending the letters
exchanged and signed in Ankara on 29 June 1954 concerning the movement
of persons with effect from 5 October.
In accordance with Article 7 of the European Agreement of
13 December 1957, on regulations governing the movement of persons,
it also notified the Council of Europe Secretariat that it found
itself obliged to suspend the provisions of Article 1, paragraphs 1
and 2, of this agreement in respect of Turkey, the effect of this measure
being the reintroduction of compulsory visas for Turkish nationals
paying brief visits to France.
The French Government found itself obliged to take this action
at a time when some of her European partners had already reintroduced
compulsory visas. Its decision was dictated chiefly by considerations
of public order.
The French Government intended, firstly, to prevent clandestine
workers unable to find work in neighbouring countries from coming
to work illegally in France, since – as I have just reminded you
– immigration from abroad has been suspended since 1974. Secondly,
it intended, at a time of political upheaval, to prevent the entry
into France of unsupervised elements likely to commit acts of terrorism
– the last such crime being the attack on the Turkish Embassy’s
press attaché in Paris – or to provoke demonstrations of the kind
staged before the Council of Europe in Strasbourg last week.
THE PRESIDENT
Thank you.
I call Mr Bacelar.
Mr BACELAR (Portugal) (translation)
My purpose in
asking for the floor is to thank Mr Barre for the clarity of his
reply. I am sure that all Portuguese will be grateful to Mr Barre
for this answer and for his clear, equitable and high-minded declaration.
I expected nothing less. Thank you, sir.
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
Thank you,
Mr Bacelar. We should now consider the sixth group of questions,
concerning the dissemination of French language and culture in the
world. These questions Nos. 6 and 19, which will be answered together,
have been tabled by MM. Fosson and Brasseur. I will now read them:
“Question No. 6:
Mr Fosson,
Considering that the French language has long been established
in the Val d’Aosta, which belonged to the Franco-Burgundian political
and cultural sphere, that the inhabitants of the region, who have
always fought to defend their right to the French language, had
a special autonomous status approved by the Constituent Assembly
of the Italian Republic in 1948, under which, among other things,
the two languages, French and Italian, were given equal status and
the compulsory teaching of French was reintroduced in schools of
all types and levels in the region;
Considering that there is no university in the Val d’Aosta
and that, in the absence of recognition of the degrees awarded by
French-speaking universities, the young inhabitants of the region
are obliged to attend Italian universities only, a problem which
has repercussions on the job opportunities for persons with a bilingual education;
Hoping that the European Community will be able to find a
solution to this problem, which concerns all the member states as
well as several other linguistic minorities,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic whether it
would not be possible to overcome these difficulties by way of an
agreement between the French and Italian Governments which, like
the agreement signed some years ago between the Italian and Austrian
Governments on the students of the autonomous Province of Bolzano
(Alto Adige), would be limited to the students of the Val d’Aosta.
Question No. 19:
Mr Brasseur,
Recalling that the multiplicity of cultures is part of Europe’s
rich heritage, and that France has traditionally given great importance
to the diffusion of the French language and French culture in the
world,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic what are
the main aspects of the French Government’s policy to defend French
in the French-speaking countries and regions of Europe, America,
Africa, and even Asia.”
I call Mr Barre to answer this group of questions.
Mr Barre, Prime Minister of the French Republic (translation)
Mr President, France attaches special importance to her relations
with countries which share with her the use of the French language.
She endeavours both to strengthen her natural ties with French-speaking
countries and to take the necessary action to protect and promote
the use of French.
I shall say nothing of the action taken at national level,
and particularly by the Ministry for Co-operation, which provides
considerable assistance with the teaching of French in twenty-two
countries, most of them in Africa. I should simply like to remind
you that in Europe France attempts to develop linguistic exchanges
and co-operation with French-speaking countries or regions, like
Belgium, Luxembourg and Switzerland, with which she exchanges books
and radio and television programmes.
With particular reference to the French community in Belgium,
I would remind you that an equal representation Franco-Belgian parliamentary
body exists for the purpose of promoting initiatives and making
proposals.
In North America, France has been making a considerable effort
to meet the special needs of Quebec for the past fifteen years and
in this area, the France-Quebecois Youth Office plays a vital role.
The establishment of a television channel in Quebec is one of the
results of this campaign. Nor has France neglected the other French-speaking
minorities in Canada and the United States, such as the Acadians
and those in Louisiana, Africa, as I have just reminded you, is
the continent where France’s language activities are most intense.
Finally, the French Government maintains contact with the
countries of Asia, such as Vietnam, in which French was widely used
in the past and tries to supply help when asked.
Finally, I should like to mention a country which we hold
dear – the Lebanon, where we still make special efforts for the
teaching and dissemination of French. I should like to take this
opportunity of saying how deeply France wishes to see peace restored
and national integrity and independence safeguarded in that country
with which we are linked by so many centuries of history. (Applause)
Apart from these bilateral initiatives, I would like to remind
you of France’s involvement in intergovernmental institutions, such
as the Interparliamentary Agency for Cultural and Technical Co-operation
and the International Association of French Language Parliamentarians;
in university institutions, such as the Association of French-speaking
or partly French-speaking Universities, and, in the Institute of
French Law and Language and the International Union of French Language
Journalists. Very recently, too, the Minister of Justice, Mr Peyrefitte,
took the initiative in bringing together the Ministers of Justice
of twenty-seven French-speaking countries in Paris.
To conclude on this point, I should like to say, ladies and
gentlemen, that our French language policy is not directed against
other languages. We believe, however, that the French language has
played, is playing and may continue to play an essential role in
the promotion of culture and dialogue between nations.
Mr BRASSEUR (Belgium) (translation)
I thank Mr Barre
for his reply, which I consider very satisfactory.
To avoid prolonging the discussion, I shall simply express
the hope that France, like other French-speaking countries, may
make an effort to secure equivalence of diplomas, and particularly
university degrees.
In this connection, I venture to remind you of the questions
specifically put by Senator Fosson – who has unfortunately had to
leave us – on the equivalence in France of qualifications obtained
by residents of the Val d’Aosta.
Mr Barre, Prime Minister of the French Republic (translation)
As an academic, I am myself very much aware of the problem
raised by Mr Brasseur, which is receiving our attention.
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
We now come
to the last group of questions which we will consider today, concerning France’s
attitude to the problems of transfrontier pollution. These questions
Nos. 7 and 30 are tabled by MM. Vohrer and Konings. I will now read
them:
“Question No. 7:
Mr Vohrer,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic to what extent
the French Government is prepared to collaborate with its European
partners in finding joint solutions in the field of transfrontier
pollution.
Question No. 30:
Mr Konings,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic when France
proposes putting an end to its discharges of chlorides into Europe’s
River Rhine.”
I call Mr Barre.
Mr Barre, Prime Minister of the French Republic (translation)
I believe that the attention paid to environmental problems
and the action taken to protect the environment and control pollution
will remain the distinctive feature of our epoch.
You have raised the important problems: pollution of the Rhine
and pollution of the Mediterranean.
With regard to the Rhine, France signed an agreement with
the other riparian states in 1976, in which she undertook with the
financial backing of her partners to reduce chloride pollution of
the river, by injecting some of the chloride residues produced by
the Alsatian potash mines into the sub-soil of Alsace.
Fear that this scheme would contaminate the water-table led
to widespread and violent opposition in Alsace, with the result
that the French Parliament was unable to ratify the agreement, and
the French Government accordingly withdrew the bill authorising
ratification, so that discussion and negotiation could resume with
our partners.
However, I should like to reaffirm the French Government’s
commitment to the general aims adopted by the Rhine riparian states.
The International Commission for Protection of the Rhine against
Pollution is currently working for a reduction of salt dumping in
the river. I have myself discussed this question with the Prime Minister
of the Netherlands. France has suggested the construction of an
international salt producing plant in Alsace. Our partners felt
that other technical projects should be launched alongside this
scheme. All of these factors are currently being considered by the
International Commission. At a later stage, they will be laid before the
Ministers for the Environment, who are to meet in 1981 for the purpose
of defining new objectives and working out ways of achieving them.
I think that it will be possible to arrive at technical solutions
which are generally acceptable.
As for the Mediterranean, the French Government is taking
action both at national and international level. On her own territory,
France intends to eliminate the dumping of waste from land-based
sources by constructing purifying plants in the last three major
cities which have so far lacked them – Marseilles, Toulon and Nice.
The extent of the effort made in France allows us to play
an important part at multilateral level, particularly in connection
with the action plan for the Mediterranean drawn up in 1975 as part
of the United Nations Environment Programme.
France’s share in this action plan is, first and foremost,
a financial one. She contributes half of the riparian states’ share,
in other words, a quarter of the organisation’s total budget of
750 000 dollars per annum. The delegations, in which French experts
play a very active part, are studying the various areas covered
by the plan, including the scientific aspects and the surveillance
of the marine environment. Our laboratories are trying to co-ordinate
their endeavours with those of their Spanish and Italian counterparts.
In the field of human and economic research, France has launched
the “blue plan” for economic development methods compatible with
protection of the environment, which is concerned in particular
with renewable energy sources and aquaculture.
Finally, in the field of international agreements, France
played an active part in negotiating the Barcelona Convention of
1976 and its protocols, which establish legal standards governing
the fight against all forms of pollution caused by human activity.
France is to deposit her instruments of ratification of this
convention in the very near future.
This, Mr President, is the information which I can give the
members of the Assembly on these two important points.
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
Thank you,
Mr Barre. I call Mr Vohrer.
Mr VOHRER (Federal Republic of Germany) (translation)
I
am very grateful for the reply so far, but would like to make my
question to the Prime Minister of the French Republic more specific.
The development of friendship between Germany and France has been
very encouraging for nearly three decades. Against this background I
would like to ask him – as a politician from the Baden Upper Rhine
area – whether the French Government is aware of the fact that there
are transfrontier environmental problems, particularly in the vicinity
of the Fessenheim nuclear power plant, which are straining German-French
friendship. I should also like to know how far the French Government
is prepared to go in agreements which take account of the total
ecological load on the Rhine valley – by this I mean air, water
and the coordination of nuclear power plant locations – and to co-operate
in them. Does the Prime Minister think the French Government would
– pending the distant goal of a European law, on the environment
– be prepared to help to ensure that in matters of transfrontier
environmental problems the more stringent of the national laws should
be applied?
Mr Barre, Prime Minister of the French Republic (translation)
We are in close contact with our German partners and friends
in this area, both at governmental and regional level.
As far as pollution and protection of the environment are
concerned, we have given our partners all the relevant information,
including information on the problems which arise in the Fessenheim
area.
I should like to make it clear, however, that we cannot allow
anyone to interfere with or to exercise any rights over the completion
of our current nuclear programme.
Mr BOZZI (France) (translation)
Hear, hear!
Mr Barre, Prime Minister of the French Republic (translation)
In fact, our national nuclear programme is essential to France’s
independence in the energy field. Moreover, we feel that it represents
a vital contribution towards the reduction of Europe’s dependence
in the energy sector. We are fully prepared to listen to the ecologists
and to take account of their views, particularly where safety and
protection of the environment are concerned, but we are not prepared
to see our basic interests sacrificed to theories which are often
more superficial than well-founded.
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
Mr Barre
has also agreed to answer Question No. 8, tabled by Mr Leon Herrero, concerning
liberalisation of the French economy. This is:
“Mr Leon Herrero,
To ask the Prime Minister of the French Republic to inform
the Assembly of the results of the economic liberalisation policy
adopted by the French Government, including the public and nationalised
sectors, and to state whether it is determined to continue with
this policy.”
Sir, the floor is yours.
Mr Barre, Prime Minister of the French Republic (translation)
Mr President, I loathe nothing more than doctrinaire attitudes.
Both as Prime Minister and, even more, as an economist I find it
impossible to follow the current debate on such things as liberalism,
interventionism, planning or the absence of planning, etc. Economic
policy is built on realities – on economic, social, political and
psychological realities.
France, for her part, pursues the policy of a country which
is faithful to the ideal of a society based on freedom and responsibility.
In an economy and society of this kind, free initiative, free
enterprise, respect for individual responsibility and acceptance
of the penalties which must be paid when responsibility has not
been assumed remain the basic principles on which the economy is
organised.
In France, we possess a nationalised sector as a legacy of
the Resistance and Liberation; we do not intend to denationalise
our national concerns, because we are proud of them: national companies,
such as Electricité de France, the Société nationale de chemins
de fer français and Air France, are renowned, not only in France, but
internationally. They form part of our national heritage, and we
want to see them managed as dynamic, prosperous and effective firms:
we do not want political interference with the running of these
public concerns, since our aim is to see them prosperous, effective
and of service to the nation.
As for private firms, they exist – and we do not intend to
nationalise them. In this connection, prior to the 1978 elections,
the French Government took an absolutely clear stand against the
opposition’s joint programme which provided for large-scale nationalisation
– and our position was, thank God, approved by a majority of the French
people with that common sense which it usually displays. So much
for the public and private sectors.
Secondly, we have tried to introduce new market machinery
into the French economy. Why? Because a great and modern nation
must be run in accordance with the principles of modern economic
management.
For thirty years, we had enforced price-controls – controls
which served to conceal, and not to solve, problems which merely
reappeared later on. The only result was that our firms no longer
possessed managerial freedom and the capacity to adjust to those
difficult problems which they have to face. We have thus removed
price-controls; this means that firms are now free to run themselves.
We intend, however, to exercise this new freedom in an atmosphere
of increased competition, both at home and abroad.
I would remind the Consultative Assembly of the Council of
Europe that, since 1976, I have waged a daily battle against those
whose only wish has been the reintroductions of protectionism on
the frontiers of France. We have opted for international progress:
for us, competition is a factor which makes for progress, and we
have no intention of regressing.
Finally, we do not want French policy to relegate currency
to a minor role. This is an important point. This may be liberalism
but, if it is, then I am a liberal. What I mean by this is that
no country has the right to let credit expand in a way which leads
to inflation. This is why the French Government has taken steps
since 1976 to ensure that the increase in the availability of currency
does not outstrip the growth of national wealth, and indeed falls
short of it.
We are not in favour of out-and-out monetarism: we do, however,
believe that currency supplies must be controlled.
Moreover, we want our currency to have a stable value on the
international market. We are against repeated devaluation, and we
uphold the value of our currency. This is why we joined the European
monetary system; we are pursuing the policy which suits our country,
and our currency is holding the place which it should have in the
European monetary system.
This is France’s economic policy. I do not know whether it
is liberal or not. Whenever it has to, the state intervenes replacing
those who must take the decisions but, at the same time, giving
those decision-makers its encouragement or support.
In this way, we feel that we can turn France into a country
capable of meeting the challenge inherent in the international situation
of which I spoke earlier.
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
We have
just spent, Mr Barre, an unusually interesting and rewarding hour
in your company – an hour which will, I feel sure, go down in the
annals of our Assembly. Given the interest in your comments, we
are all aware that this session could have continued much longer.
I should like to apologise once again to those members of
the Assembly whose questions could not be answered owing to lack
of time.
Once again, Mr Barre, I thank you most sincerely, particularly
for your words of encouragement and for your commitment to the aims
and role of the Council of Europe.