THE PRESIDENT (translation)
Thank you,
Mr President, for your very frank and sincere statement, which will undoubtedly
find a favourable response in our Assembly.
I will repeat what I have already told you in my office, since
I am anxious for this to be shared by my colleagues: we are all
ready, in our hearts and in our intentions, to welcome your people
and your institutions among us. We are happy to have heard, in your
statement, how far your promises coincide with our expressed desire
that Albania will, as soon as possible, join us not only in upholding
all the values that the Council of Europe stands for, but also in
cooperative undertakings and projects for the future.
Ladies and gentlemen, President Berisha has informed us that
he is willing to answer spontaneous questions from the floor. I
thank him warmly. As numerous members have informed me of their
intention to ask a question, it will not be possible to use the
supplementary questions procedure. Otherwise a number of members
would not be able to ask their first question.
President Berisha will answer questions in the order we have
set so as to cover as many subjects as possible and give all our
colleagues an opportunity to take the floor. I call Mr Muehlemann
to ask the first question.
Mr MUEHLEMANN (Switzerland) (translation)
President
Berisha, you have replaced the darkness of communism by the freedom
and light of democracy! Where do you feel that the emphasis of cooperation
with the states of Europe should be placed? On short-term measures
such as emergency food aid, medical assistance or efforts to overcome
unemployment? On medium-term measures such as privatising agriculture,
boosting industrial production and introducing services? Or will
you have to give priority to improving transport infrastructure? Perhaps
exchanging ideas and pooling experience is more important? The doors
are now open, and you can move forward as you see fit.
Mr Berisha, President of Albania
One starts from zero.
There is not one priority; there are many. That is why Albania is
a very special case. At one and the same time it is both inside
and outside Europe. Albania needs humanitarian assistance.
Next year wheat production will decrease by at least 50% because
about 40% of agricultural land has not been planted. Technical assistance
is a very important priority for Albania. We need specialist help
with our legal system, economics and banking. Technical assistance
is vital if we are to build up such new institutions.
Another priority of the democratic government of Albania is
the infrastructure. Without a proper infrastructure we cannot develop
tourism and thereby profit from our very good climate. Agriculture,
however, remains the greatest priority for the time being. Over
two-thirds of the population live in villages. The Bolshevik military system
has been destroyed and the land has been privatised but without
agricultural machinery, fertiliser and seed Albania’s agricultural
system will remain primitive and the market economy ineffective.
Albania’s unemployment is the highest in Europe. We need to
create new employment. I ask the other countries of Europe to recognise
that Albanians were not allowed to leave their country for half
a century. During that time, however, millions of Italians, Greeks,
Spanish and Portuguese left their homeland for a better life. A
guest-worker programme is needed for Albania. That would diminish
the burden of unemployment and allow the people of Albania to build
up a better future.
Mr ROMAN (Spain) (interpretation)
asked whether the
Albanian Government intended to enact laws that would encourage national
reconciliation.
Mr Berisha, President of Albania (translation)
Albania was not the only subject of dictatorship. Many other
countries have had them. In our opinion, the Spanish policy is the
best one to adopt. There is no other way, because a society which
has lived under a dictatorship needs justice but also charity, which
is important if human beings are to be developed. We are trying
to apply the Spanish experience. I think that your country should
assist all eastern European countries in that direction.
Mr PANGALOS (Greece) (translation)
Mr President,
allow me first of all to say how happy I am to see you here. We
met in Tirana in much more difficult circumstances at a time when
freedom was fragile and the future of Albania uncertain.
I have also a very personal reason to be happy to see you
in our midst: many centuries ago my ancestors left Albania to go
to the south of Greece. I therefore feel myself to be in some small
degree Albanian.
My question is straightforward.
You have set certain priorities, but I believe it will be
necessary to begin by introducing a work ethic. To do this, would
it not be appropriate to complete the distribution of land as quickly
as possible, that is, before the next harvest? How is the distribution
of land progressing? What stage have you reached in the process?
Mr Berisha, President of Albania (translation)
The redistribution of land had been slowed down considerably.
To speed it up a governmental committee and local committees were
established. The principle is fair and we respect it. I hope that,
within one and a half months the redistribution of land will have
been completed except for the so-called state farms, which will
have to be transformed into agricultural companies or something
similar.
At present more than 68% of the land has already been handed
over to peasants. There therefore remains about 30% to be redistributed.
Mr BENDER (Poland)
A few months ago
you liquidated your communist government. It was a very strong government.
Albania was one of the hardest communist countries in the world.
Now you have democracy. The communist government liquidated all
churches and religions. I should like to ask you about the religious situation
in Albania now.
Mr Berisha, President of Albania
We are trying to assure
all human rights, including the religious rights of Albanians. Of
course, being the poorest country, Albania is in a difficult position
to assure the right to practise a religion, but we are co-operating
with different religious institutions to assist them and to build
cult institutions as soon as possible. We have three religions because
God wanted three religions and we respect all of them. Wherever
there are three or four Catholics we would like to have a church
for them, and we would like to have a mosque wherever there are
three or four Muslims. That is our policy.
Tomorrow I shall have the great pleasure of paying an official
visit to the Pope. I am leaving Strasbourg to see him.
THE PRESIDENT
You may
tell the Pope that you have received questions from his fellow countrymen
about the religious situation in Albania. I call Mr Poças Santos.
Mr POÇAS SANTOS (Portugal) (interpretation)
said that President
Berisha had already covered the point he wished to raise.
Mr ROWE (United Kingdom)
You pointed
out the very real fact that there are a large number of Albanians living
outside the present frontiers of Albania. An integral part of the
Council of Europe philosophy is that the integrity of existing boundaries
should be observed. Could you explain a little more your policy
towards those Albanians who do not live within the boundaries of
Albania?
Mr Berisha, President of Albania
First, we shall insist
that the rights of Albanians in Yugoslavia be respected – both human
and national rights, including the right to self-determination –
which are foreseen in the Helsinki agreements. Secondly, we have
said that dual citizenship will apply to all Albanians. I know that
I have been unfairly criticised, but I feel that it is a feature
of integration. I am ready to apply dual citizenship, not only to
Albanians but to other people in Europe and in the world. You gentlemen
also have two passports in your pockets. You did not destabilise
Europe – in contrast, you stabilised it.
Mr LIAPIS (Greece)
We should like
to know how satisfactory you think it is for your democratic ideals
to have excluded the Greek minority party Omonia from the last elections
by an amendment – which I am afraid had your strong support – forbidding
the creation of political parties with an ethnic or religious basis.
Do you think that those practices promote human rights standards
– something that we regard as the Council of Europe’s cornerstone
– or do you think that such policies improve good relations with
neighbouring countries?
Mr Berisha, President of Albania
As regards the Omonia
case, I must explain that I have not agreed and never supported
that idea. It was a wrong decision. Two days before the decision
by our parliament not to allow Omonia to present deputies in their
areas, I said in a press conference that the Democratic Party would
be in favour. But, ladies and gentlemen, you should take into account
the fact that fledgling democracies are always in more difficulties
than a consolidated democracy. The next day, I went to see the President
of the Republic. I asked him to adopt the Bulgarian solution for
that case. I explained what the Bulgarian solution meant. He promised
to do something, but he did not adopt that solution. I should like
to assure you that all the human and national rights of the Greek
minority will be respected. However, you should also recognise that
some circles are not in favour of good relations. I do not believe
that they are related to the Greek Government. We are working for
better relations and I am hopeful of better relations between the
two countries.
Mr Friedrich PROBST (Austria) (translation)
Mr President,
I am very pleased to see you here. I was a member of the delegation
which observed the elections in Albania and found them to be fair.
When we were in Albania, we made very strong appeals to you on behalf
of the Greek minority and Omonia. I now have in my possession a detailed
map printed in Greek. It shows slightly more than half of Albanian
territory as belonging to Greece – which would reduce Albania to
one-third of its present extent, with the remaining two-thirds going
to Greece. Your view and assessment of these problems, and the way
you mean to deal with them, are all directly relevant to the question
raised by my colleague from Greece. I believe that we, too, should
bring a little discipline into our thinking here. We should consider
what maps of this kind would mean for tomorrow’s Europe!
Mr Berisha, President of Albania
That map represents
the debris of an ancient mentality and ancient policy to me, but
I hope that the Greek Government will have nothing to do with the
map, which shows half of Albanian territory as belonging to Greece.
Three days ago I received Mr Mitsotakis as a guest and he openly
declared that Greece has no territorial pretensions to Albania.
As for these documents, I am sorry to say that they were distributed
by some priests, who did this rather than serving religion and God. We
discussed this with a bishop, who condemned these cases.
Mr SAHIN (Turkey) (interpretation)
asked what were
Mr Berisha’s aspirations for Albania.
Mr Berisha, President of Albania
One of our main aspirations
is to be a full member of this Council, and to build up a democratic
state with free democratic institutions. We shall ask for, and I
am sure that we shall have, the assistance of the Council of Europe
in building up those new institutions. We shall adopt an open-door
policy, allowing the free movement of people, merchandise and ideas.
Mr BORDERAS (Spain) (interpretation)
asked whether the
school books had been changed to reflect the new philosophy, and
whether teachers had been retrained.
Mr Berisha, President of Albania
Education is one of
our main priorities. We have already changed some texts and are
proceeding with the complete change of textbooks for schools. As
for teachers, I can assure you that Albanian teachers, the very
poorest of our people, were never indoctrinated by communists. What
they did they did out of fear and, from the first, they strongly
supported democracy.
Of course, we need the assistance of other countries through,
for example, scholarships and exchanges, because we intend to give
full and deep meaning to our universities and to have many ties
and contacts with your universities. We are working with Unesco
to accelerate change in our education system.
Mr COX (United Kingdom)
Many of
us have seen on our television screens the sad conditions in which young
children and adults suffering from physical and mental illness are
kept in your country. What progress is being made in improving conditions,
facilities and living opportunities for such people?
Mr Berisha, President of Albania
The situation of Albanian
children is still very difficult. We are trying to improve health
care for children through a World Bank programme. I know that the
United Kingdom is assisting and we appreciate any intervention,
from anywhere in Europe, to assist us in improving the health care
for, and education of, our children. We have already started a project,
which has been presented to the World Health Organisation, which
will apply a new demographic policy in our country.
Mr ROKOFYLLOS (Greece) (translation)
Mr President,
as I come from a country that has not the slightest territorial
claim on Albania and belong to a party, the Greek Socialist Party,
which has long made every effort to promote warmer relations between
the Albanian and Greek peoples, I venture to salute your presence
here as a premonitory sign that Albania will shortly become a member
of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe.
My question concerns the democratisation process in the new
Albania. You have very pertinently stressed that there are two phases
in democracy, one destructive and the other constructive. You have
succeeded in destroying the former regime. Do you expect to organise,
in a thoroughly democratic way excluding all discrimination, the
constructive phase of the new Albania?
Mr Berisha, President of Albania (translation)
First of all, I should like to thank the team that is no longer
in power, the team of Mr Papandreou, which demonstrated a sympathetic
attitude towards the Albanians. Their receptiveness towards Albania
was towards its citizens and intellectuals and not at all towards its
regime.
Secondly, I assure you that there will be no discrimination.
If, in your question, you are thinking of the participation of the
Greek committee, I am able to inform you that two ministers in the
Cabinet and several senior officials belong to that minority. We
judge people only according to their worth, their capacities and
their support for the reforms.
Mr PARISI (Italy) (translation)
Mr President, may
I convey to President Sali Berisha my warmest congratulations and wholehearted
appreciation, not least for the clarity and simplicity with which
he opened this morning’s dialogue, one which we trust may develop
further in the time ahead when Albania becomes a fully-fledged member
of this Assembly.
The specific question which I wanted to ask has already been
put and so I need not reiterate it. However, I should like to take
the opportunity to draw attention to the problem of food aid, one
which has priority not for strategic reasons but because of its
urgency, and one with which progress has lately been made. In particular, I
would mention Albania’s dealings and relationship with Italy: there
have been moments of serious trouble between the two countries,
but the Italian Government, actuated by a keen sense of responsibility,
has nonetheless dealt with them constructively. I accordingly ask
what the Albanian President thinks of the food aid programme carried
out so far and how he considers it might be enhanced and amplified,
so that it moves from the emergency phase to a phase of more structured
and thus more effective intervention.
Mr Berisha, President of Albania (translation)
Without the assistance and intervention of the European committee,
and especially of Italy, democracy could not have won. This aid
was vital to avoid total chaos and even social conflict among Albanians.
As regards humanitarian aid for next year – which I hope,
as I have said, will not be reduced but on the contrary increased
– it should be concentrated on basic products. What Albania now
needs most of all is genuine economic co-operation. Albanians must
be given the opportunity to work because they are both creative
and productive.
THE PRESIDENT
The next
question is from Mr Berg whose name was not given to the Chair as
one of those who wished to put a question. However no Scandinavian
has asked a question, so you are most welcome to do so.
Mr BERG (Norway)
When I was travelling
in your country, Mr President, I was struck by its beauty and its many
undeveloped resources, which give hope for the future. For instance,
you have unrestored Roman colosseums in Durrës and in other places
as well as a fantastic museum in Durrës which is full of ancient treasures
which are insufficiently guarded. Could you elaborate on the prospects
of attracting tourists to Albania, given that the tourist industry
will be the largest in the world by the end of this century? Will
you give due consideration to your environmental responsibilities
for the longest unspoilt beaches in Europe, which may also be the
last?
Mr Berisha, President of Albania (translation)
One of our priorities is tourism, but in order to develop it
it is necessary to have an infrastructure. We are concentrating
our efforts on developing that infrastructure and the development
of tourism will come later. On items of cultural value, we are strengthening
our ties with different international institutions in order to save
and restore them.
Mr MIKAN (Czech and Slovak Federal Republic)
The Social, Health and Family Affairs Committee of the Council
of Europe is aware of the problems facing hospitals in Albania.
Does your government, Mr President, intend to change the system
of health care? What measures would improve that health care immediately?
Mr Berisha, President of Albania
We will change the
legislation on health care so that we have private and public sector
health care. At the moment one of our main difficulties is a lack
of equipment and that brings into doubt the quality of care given.
We are working with the World Bank to equip our hospitals and we
will also favour the private sector, which is necessary to assure
the quality of care. There should be competition in all things.
THE PRESIDENT
The next
question comes from Mrs Lentz-Cornette who, as you know, Mr President,
has been one of the big advocates of Albania’s case in our Assembly.
Mrs LENTZ-CORNETTE (Luxembourg) (translation)
Mr President,
I am particularly happy to see you among us today because nothing
justified such hopes at the time of the elections in March 1991.
So miracles do still happen!
The previous government had decided to pay workers 80% of
their wages when they were not working. Former political prisoners
were naturally excluded from this measure since they had not had
any work before. What have you decided to do about this measure
and how are you intending to urge your workers to go back to work?
Mr Berisha, President of Albania (translation)
The 80% law was very communistic in that it tended to strengthen
the authority in power and ended up by ruining the economy. We are
going to repeal it. Negotiations have been embarked on with the
European committee which, I hope, will lend us funds to purchase
raw materials. When this has been done, we shall repeal the law.
Albania cannot progress with such a law in place for it is a gangrene
in our economy.
As for the situation of former political prisoners, it is
deplorable. Though they have been freed, they have not recovered
all their rights. Owing to the lack of housing, thousands of them
are still living in their concentration camps. We have set up a
Ministry of Labour which will look into their case. We are going
to adopt an accelerated programme to reintegrate them and return
them to a normal life as soon as possible, but here again the assistance
of the international community will be vital to us.
Mr GÜNER (Turkey)
As someone who
comes from a family of Albanian origin and as a member of this Assembly,
let me express the wish that your visit to the Council of Europe
will help to improve your country’s relationship with this Organisation.
As you know, my country is trying to contribute to the economic development
of your country, but we all know that that aid is not sufficient
and that your country needs much more. President Walesa said at
the Council that, in Europe, all European countries share common
values, but that there is a risk that, in future, poverty might
divide Europe. Do you agree? If so, what measures do you believe
should be taken to overcome that risk? What do you expect from other
European countries to improve your balance of payments?
Mr Berisha, President of Albania
For many years Europe
seemed to me like the full moon, with a bright face which was the
West and a concealed, dark one which was the East. I know that the political
differences are disappearing and I hope that that process will favour
the disappearance of the economic differences. It will be a long
process and the differences are a reality. I agree with Mr Walesa.
Mr LAAKSO (Finland)
Mr President,
you spoke very warmly of the construction of the new state according to
the principle of democracy. We in the Council of Europe have noticed
that new political leaders of some former socialist countries have
built or plan to build into their legislation the notorious concept
of collective punishment against hundreds of thousands of members
of communist par ties. Are you in Albania going to follow the same
line as, for example, Czechoslovakia, or will your country follow
the principles of the European Convention on Human Rights which
rejects collective punishment?
Mr Berisha, President of Albania
We are wholly against
collective punishment. We shall respect and sign all conventions.
In any dictatorship society I think that responsibility is vertical
and no one could say that I myself do not feel a little responsible.
We are against collective punishment: it will not apply.
Mr RUFFY (Switzerland) (translation)
Mr President,
the abandonment of communism and the installation of new regimes in
countries which have had little previous experience of democracy
with its full recognition of individual rights do not always result
in all the improvements hoped for.
What will happen about equality of rights between men and
women in future Albanian society? Is there danger of the resurgence
of discriminatory treatment which would make it difficult or even
impossible for Albanian women to have access to administrative or
political activities and responsibilities?
Mr Berisha, President of Albania (translation)
I should first of all like to draw your attention to the fact
that Albanian women played a crucial rule in the victory of democracy.
I recognise that they have not been properly rewarded for the role
they played.
We are going to do our utmost to ensure genuine emancipation,
but you have to understand that, in the aftermath of a dictatorship,
we are confronted each hour of each day with old anti-democratic
ideas.
Democracy cannot be established in a few days or a few months.
We have to fight for it. It might take an entire generation. I have
no idea.
Mr PAHTAS (Greece) (translation)
Mr President,
I am truly delighted to see you in our midst, representing your
country and the Albanian people in our forum which lies at the crossroads
of democracy and represents human rights. I sincerely wish you every
success.
Mr President, on 11 and 12 January last the Albanians of the
Republic of Skopje took part in a referendum which was declared
illegal by the authorities of that republic.
In the course of an exchange of views that we had yesterday
with a delegation from that Republic, the number of Albanians living
there was estimated at about 400 000. This morning you spoke of
700 000 to 900 000 of them and of the need to establish a canton.
It would be most interesting for our Assembly if you could
be more explicit on the subject of creating this canton and more
precise as to the exact number of Albanians living in the Republic
of Skopje.
Mr Berisha, President of Albania (translation)
I should first of all inform you that there are no exact figures
for the number of Albanians, Turks or Macedonians in that republic,
which explains the differences in the figures.
We support the independence of Macedonia because it is a trouble
spot that could spark a Balkan conflict. Yet I am unable to imagine
such a state without an assurance that the human rights of other
nationalities which, according to unconfirmed data, together represent
the majority, will be respected. The Macedonians are not in the
majority in that republic.
For my part, I am in favour of territorial and political autonomy
for the Albanians. In Titograd and in several municipalities they
do in fact represent more than 90 % of the population.
In my opinion, a democratic state divided into cantons is
much more stable than a unified state under a dictatorship. Now,
the present Constitution of Macedonia says that there exists a single
Macedonian state, thus excluding any other citizenship. I consider
it necessary to adopt a cantonal system or to draft another constitution
more in keeping with the interests of all the citizens.
THE PRESIDENT (translation)
Thank you,
Mr President. You have replied to about twenty questions and I am
sure that my fellow members in the Assembly are highly satisfied,
as I am myself.
We should like to thank you for your sincerity and your spontaneity.
Be assured that we are all content and that we shall preserve an
excellent memory of your visit to us.
I think too that I can speak for all of us in welcoming your
affirmation of Albanian’s formal desire to become a full member
of the Council of Europe. We take note of this; we shall all support
your wish and the strenuous efforts it will be necessary for you
to make to obtain satisfaction.
You have certainly noticed that some members who put questions
to you proudly laid claim to their Albanian origins. As I listened
to them, I was reminded of President Kennedy’s cry in Berlin: “Ich
bin ein Berliner”. I also thought how many people used to say: “We
are all German Jews”.
I think that I may speak for my friends in asserting that
the time has come to proclaim here that “We are all Albanians”.
Mr President, we salute you and wish you every success in your action.
