Parliamentary Assembly

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

On the second part of your question, I do not believe that democracy can be imposed. It must derive from a decision of the people, which is relevant to the change from a lack of democracy to democracy. As you know, under the agreement on the declaration of principles between the PLO and Israel, the Palestinian Council must be elected. We will do whatever can be done to facilitate that by the redeployment of our forces from the central, densely populated areas. Last week, we asked the Palestinians and the PLO whether they wanted to prepare for overall elections to the Palestinian Council for the municipalities, but we can only offer: we cannot impose. As many European countries have good relations with the PLO and the Palestinians, they should try to encourage them to become democratic. It would not be advisable for Israel to be the main party demanding that because it would look like an attempt either to patronise or to impose. If you do it, I hope that you will succeed.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

We have made it clear in our negotiations with the Palestinians and the PLO that release will be linked to implementation of the declaration of peace – at least for the Gaza-Jericho phase. Of course there are certain problems vis-à-vis those who have assassinated Palestinians and Israelis. What will happen to them? Generally speaking, we are ready and we have made it clear that release will be related to reaching and implementing an agreement and that it will apply only to those who say, “We support peace” and not to those who proclaim that, once released, they will join a terrorist organisation such as Hammas or Islamic Jihad and that they will continue to use terror as the main means of undermining the agreement between the PLO and Israel.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

In the negotiations about the implementation of the declaration of peace, we must be very careful. We are, undoubtedly, more developed economically and socially than the Palestinians. But as I said before, we should not appear to be dictating to them or patronising. All that we can do is offer it to them.

I believe that there are enough very capable Palestinians to run their affairs. We can find good businessmen, scientists and organisers among the Palestinians. I shall give you an example. In the Gaza Strip, we have thirty-five departments of the civil administration which for all practical purposes run the life of the Palestinians. All those departments are headed by Palestinians from Gaza. If they are allowed, and there is policy to guide them, they will continue to run the development of the Gaza. But it is not up to us to dictate to the PLO that these people must remain in their positions. It is their decision.

We are more than ready to co-operate. In the Paris talks, where economic negotiations were conducted between representatives of the PLO and Israel, we offered the Palestinians free economic choice and whatever that means. There were demonstrations by the farmers because they were afraid that the Israeli market would be flooded with certain agricultural products from the Palestinians. We are ready for any kind of co-operation that will lead to the advancement of their economic and social capability.

At present, we have to look at it as negotiations between partners, not negotiations with one side having the upper hand. In every meeting that I had with Chairman Arafat, he used to say that I had the upper hand and therefore I had to make decisions. We do not look at it in that way. It is its decision. We are ready to co-operate.

In our relations with Europe, we ask you to assist the Palestinians. Once an agreement is reached, you must assist them. For me as an Israeli, without economic and social development for the 750000 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, and after waving the flag for six months, the whole fragile structure might be in danger. The Israelis are still interested in it. Please assist them. We do not ask for financial aid from Europe, only a fair chance of competition.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

As you know, the present Government of Israel has changed not only its position on the terms for peace and finding the partners for peace vis-à-vis the former governments of Israel; it has changed the order of national priorities. Today, we see the order of national priorities as follows: education, the transportation infrastructure and the fight against unemployment. Putting money into the territories went down tremendously in the order of our priorities. At the same time, there can be no law that prevents anyone from settling where there is an Israeli settlement. There is much less government assistance, if any, for that type of development.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

If we speak only of co-operation between Mediterranean countries, the issue is different. The Mediterranean does not only include countries with democracies. There are countries on the northern shore of Africa bordering the Mediterranean which do not have democracy. We are for all forms of international co-operation without any discrimination. I doubt whether Algeria or Libya, which are countries on the Mediterranean shore, would like to see Israel as part of such an organisation. However, the Israelis are ready.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

Jerusalem must remain united under Israel’s sovereignty and our capital for ever. Since the end of the 1940s, there were two capitals that were divided by walls, minefields and people with machine-guns – Jerusalem and Berlin. We thank God that both of them united. I believe that one must distinguish between Jerusalem as a united and living city, and the fact that Jerusalem is holy to the three religions. I refer especially to Christianity and Islam. Since 1967, there has been free access and free practice for Christians and Muslims. They can do what is needed by their religion. As you know, the holy shrines in Jerusalem for the Muslim and for the Christians are run administratively by the various religions. The Holy Sepulchre is run administratively by the Christian Church. The holy places for the Muslims – the two mosques – are run by the High Council of the Muslims. We do not interfere in the administration of the holy shrines. We cannot draw a line between what is needed for the various religions – their administration and their beliefs in terms of free access, free practice and independent administration of the holy shrines – and the change in the status of Jerusalem.

Since 1967, we have done what is needed for every Christian and for every Muslim. Some 200 Libyan pilgrims want to come to pray in the mosques in Jerusalem. Regardless of the policy of the Libyan Government, we say that whoever wants to make a pilgrimage and from whatever country, he may do so. If Gaddafi decides tomorrow to make a pilgrimage to the mosque in Jerusalem, I promise him safe passage to Israel and back to Libya. That is the principle that guides us.

We more than appreciate the Vatican’s decision just a month or six weeks ago openly to sign a new chapter in the relations between the Catholic Church and the Jewish people – between the Vatican and the Jewish state of Israel. I believe that that will elevate our relations and will clear up many misunderstandings of the past. I believe that it will create entirely different relationships between Catholics and Jews, and between the Vatican and Israel.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

Unfortunately we have a long history of wars. We have experienced six wars and there has been no real day of peace between them. The bulk of our national servicemen are reservists. I believe that they understand the situation. They are motivated to do what is needed to ensure that Israel will be secure and to give maximum security to the Israelis.

Those soldiers believe that their government will not go to war unless there is no choice. What is demanded from them is understood by most of them to be vital to the security of Israel and to the security of the Israelis. I believe that that realisation gives them the motivation and the readiness to do everything that is needed, and, sometimes, to sacrifice their lives in fulfilling that mission. That is how I see it. I believe that we are fortunate with our young generation. They have individual and collective responsibility for security.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

The best confidence-building measure today would be to reach agreement about Gaza and Jericho first and then to start to implement that agreement. Sometimes too much attention is given to side issues instead of tackling the core of the problem. We should find ways to change the realities. The whole idea of the interim agreement is to create an interim period in which the Palestinians will have something that no one except Israel has given them. The Jordanians did not offer them that when they occupied the West Bank. The Egyptians did not offer them that when they occupied the Gaza Strip. We offered that to them. You want elections? We believe in elections. We say to the Palestinians, take responsibility for running your lives as long as that does not interfere with the Israelis and with the security of Israel.

Let us try to change the realities. Let us try to create the new realities with more confidence. That will reduce the suspicions and hatred that have been accumulated in the past. Let us tackle the core of the issue. Let us change the realities. The Palestinians can take responsibility for their daily lives, for their education, for their housing, for jobs and for economic development, and we ask them to do so. Confidence-building measures are important when there is no agreement in principle for a more dramatic change. Let us work for that change and let us implement it.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

First, the most important thing is to achieve peace. Allow me to elaborate. In the context of the negotiations started at the Madrid peace conference, everyone is talking about a comprehensive peace. That is not correct. It is peace only between the four neighbouring Arab countries and a movement towards a solution of the Palestinian problem. But there are other Arab countries: Saudi Arabia, the sheikdoms and princedoms, Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. Comprehensive peace in the regions will mean peace with all the Arab countries, or at least some of them. What we now mean by a comprehensive peace is peace with the inner circle of Arab countries neighbouring Israel. Let us achieve that first. If we do that, there will be the possibility of regional co-operation and I believe that it will then be easier to deal with economic cooperation related to water supply, transportation, electricity supply, tourism and so on. But it cannot be done while boycotts exist and it cannot happen until we have made a major move vis-à-vis the Palestinians and, perhaps, the Syrians.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

I believe that there are many problems in the world and there are many different classifications for the different confrontations. I do not know precisely what is meant by the South or the North. Are the rich oil-producing countries part of the North or the South? It is more a question of different cultures, traditions and experience.

As I said, democratic systems cannot be imposed or imported. For several years, I served as Israel’s ambassador to the United States. The average American believed that if you brought a good constitution to countries in what you called the southern part of the world, once they had legislated there would be a democracy. I used to tell the Americans, “Do not forget that democracy is a product of hundreds of years of cultural, mental and economic developments in Europe and, to the best of my knowledge, you Americans brought democracy with you from Europe. I am not aware that before you came to the United States, the people who lived here had invented democracy. It is a prolonged process of change”.

It will take a long time and a combination of systems to change the present economic situation. There must be a change in basic attitudes and people must understand the need to move towards local community and family systems. There is no magic solution to the plight of all the countries in the South; the process will be a long one. Israel has had some experience, in its limited way, of working together with some Asian and African countries and peoples. We cannot start to change without a major financial effort, and that change will not be effective unless the leaders of those countries are committed and capable.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

Israel was pleased to host a visit of your Foreign Minister a few weeks ago. The Jewish people have a long history of relations with Slovakia, and we appreciated very much the courage of your country’s leadership to do what you described.

Israel is the only observer to this distinguished Organisation. I hope that, in the future, even with the status of observer, Israel will become more involved in the activities of this Organisation. I hope that that will be an incentive to other countries in the region to change their ways of life, to become more democratic and to have the right to be observers here, too.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

While it is true that I made a decision, it remains to be legislated. To hold a referendum once there is peace with Syria will call for significant withdrawal from the area under our control. I believe that this issue is very critical – whether or not to make peace, and if we can make peace under our own conditions. Therefore I feel that this process can take place under the Israeli system, in other words, in a democratic country. We watched what happened in Europe, and even in Britain, where there had never been a referendum until it joined the European Economic Community. In France and Denmark referenda were held about the Maastricht agreement. I am ready to organise one in Israel, and President Assad will decide about a referendum in Syria.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

We are, in the territories, under the Geneva Convention. There is no doubt that we have to use measures to cope with terrorism. The fact that no Israeli government has changed the status of the territories for twenty-six years and that they have left their future open until we have negotiated peace with our neighbouring countries, the Jordanians, Egyptians and Palestinians shows that Israel did not intend to annex them in any unilateral way. There is a military government in the territories and – under our military government – we try to use whatever means we consider legal. As you know, even though they are not part of the sovereign soil of Israel, our Supreme Court can judge on and must respond to any complaint by any Palestinians or residents of the territories. Therefore, I cannot say that the kind of laws that exist in Israel also exist in the territories because we did not annex them and they are still under military government. The solution will be found once we have first reached an agreement with the Palestinians on Gaza-Jericho, but the issue will still be there and we shall see whether they will be able to maintain human rights as we have done under military government.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

Israel is a democracy and therefore I would not deny that there are parties who oppose my policy and that of the Israeli Government. However, in a democracy the majority decides. In accordance with the democratic system of every country, there are some divisions about the government’s decision to sign the declaration of principles with the PLO and the change in policy, which brought about mutual recognition between Israel and the PLO. I shall be frank. At present, out of 120 members of our Knesset, sixty-one support my policy – I have a majority of one – six are wavering and fifty-three are against, which shows that there is a division. There is no doubt as to whether, when a policy is related to key issues such as peace vis-à-vis security, as I have described, there is a need for a referendum if the peace treaty with Syria calls for a significant withdrawal by Israel. There are differences in a democracy because the basis of democracy is that the majority decides. What can small European countries do? I do not believe that one can pick certain items for each country. It would be preferable for the European Council or the Council of Europe to work together. I believe that the impact will be much more important and influential and it is therefore preferable to approach the matter from the point of view of all the members of the Council of Europe.

Mr Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel

As someone who was born in Jerusalem seventy-two years ago and being Jewish, I believe that Jerusalem is holy to the three religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The name Jerusalem means the city of peace because it derives from the Hebrew words erou shalom which means, “we seek peace”. In three years we shall celebrate the fact that it is 3000 years since the establishment of Jerusalem by King David.

I hope that circumstances will be as you described and that the roots of all three religions – and especially of Judaism and Christianity – will serve that purpose. I do not see any conflict between the role played by the Council of Europe and the fact that it is located on the sovereign soil of France. I see no reason why Jerusalem cannot serve the Middle East in the way that was described today, despite the fact that it is part of the sovereign soil of Israel.