THE PRESIDENT
There is
one difficulty. Mr Thorn has functions other than being President
of the Committee of Ministers and he has to leave at 5.45 pm. We
have thirteen questions down and two members who wanted to speak
in the debate. These two have been added to the question list, making
a total of fifteen. It is now six minutes past five. If all members
want to put a question, obviously they will not get answers from Mr Thorn.
We cannot have the Prime Minister of Luxembourg here to answer questions
if they go on too long. Therefore I ask members to be as short as
possible and we will see how far we can go. The questions are contained
in Document 4110. The first question is from Mr Margue on the report
of the Commission of Human Rights in the case brought by Cyprus
against Turkey.
It reads as follows:
“Mr Margue
To ask the Chairman of the Committee of Ministers when will
the Committee of Ministers take a stand on the report of the Commission
of Human Rights in the case brought by Cyprus against Turkey?”
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
Mr President,
I should like to reply to the questions of Mr Margue and Mr Molin
at the same time.
THE PRESIDENT
In that
case I shall read out Question No. 2 presented by Mr Molin:
“Mr Molin
To ask the Chairman of the Committee of Ministers:
– whether the report from July 1976, by the European Commission
of Human Rights in the case brought by Cyprus against Turkey, and
the subsequent decision by the Committee of Ministers, will be published,
and
– it the answer is no, for what reason.”
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
The case brought
against Turkey by Cyprus has been considered by the Committee of
Ministers but, since our discussions are confidential, I am not
in a position, as you will all understand, to tell you what took
place. I would point out that the Committee may only decide to publish
a report on a human rights petition as provided for in Article 32
of the convention. In this case, no such decision has in fact been
taken. More than that I cannot tell you.
In my own personal view, however, the present situation and,
in particular, the attitude recently adopted by the new Turkish
Government give reason to hope that some progress will be made towards
solving this extremely thorny problem. Public statements regarding
what is only one aspect of the question, though certainly an extremely
important and painful one, are not likely, I think, either to promote
or to hasten such a solution.
THE PRESIDENT
Thank you.
Mr Margue, are you satisfied with the reply?
Mr MARGUE (Luxembourg) (translation)
I just wish
to put one further question, Mr President.
The Chairman of the Committee of Ministers reminded us just
now that our Convention on Human Rights was the most effective instrument
that existed for the protection of those rights. Does he genuinely
believe that by combining the two roles, political and judicial,
the Committee of Ministers which, should the defendant countries so
decide, is obliged to assume what in other cases would be the function
of the Court, is really running no risk of being accused of denying
justice if it continues to do nothing at all?
It is not for us to instruct the Committee in its duties,
but once it has received a petition does the Chairman not think
it ought to take a decision?
Mr MOLIN
The
answer from the Committee of Ministers was a little disappointing.
The Committee of Ministers has now had a considerable time for its
consideration. After all, this report from the European Commission
of Human Rights was delivered to the Committee more than a year
ago, in August 1976, and we have read of it in different international
newspapers. We do not know whether or not that press information
was true. It would be very valuable to have an open discussion in
this Assembly on these alleged violations of the Human Rights Convention.
I well understand that the Committee of Ministers has responsibility
to promote a settlement of the Cyprus problem, but an open debate
here could also promote a fair settlement of the Cyprus crisis –
a settlement in accordance with the principles of human rights and
national sovereignty.
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
It is my impression,
Mr President, that every member of this Assembly is well aware that,
by definition, any reply to a question by the Committee of Ministers
is necessarily unsatisfactory to the persons putting it. That, at
least, has been the tradition so far as any delicate questions are
concerned. The Assembly ought, in any case, to realise that I am
certainly not authorised to reply to a supplementary question on
behalf of my nineteen other colleagues.
The problem which has been raised both by Mr Molin and by
my compatriot, Mr Margue, in all its acute legal implications, perhaps
has a reverse side when seen from the political angle. Speaking
personally, I would say that the risk of a denial of justice which
Mr Margue was apparently envisaging does exist, and is even deliberate.
The Committee was given this possibility and I think those, of whom
I was not one, who devised this particular procedure also envisaged
that that might be its effect.
You say, Mr Molin, that you have learnt the elements of the
report from the press and you would like a full debate on the subject.
This is a case in which the Committee of Ministers is sitting as
at once a judicial body and a political committee and we know that
the interests of the two may not always coincide. Publication of
the report would, in itself, constitute a sanction.
You are all politicians, Ladies and Gentlemen, and we know
that if an end is to be put to a situation which we are all ready
to condemn, an end must also be put to the political dispute. So
we have to choose between two types of risk, two points of view,
which are open to us. Do we really want to have the whole thing
set out in detail in public, knowing that one or other party will
take advantage of this? In that case, the necessary majority will
not be forthcoming and that is something I can do nothing about.
Rules are rules and there has to be a majority of two thirds. Do
we really want to insist on the Committee of Ministers taking action
that would appear in the light of a sanction and merely render a
political understanding more difficult at the very moment when, as
politicians, we see that a rapprochement between the two sides is
conceivably possible?
What, speaking only for myself, I would like to make you understand,
Ladies and Gentlemen, is that my colleagues on the Committee of
Ministers are not at present prepared to follow the line you suggest
and, further, that it is perhaps not the best line to take at the
moment.
THE PRESIDENT
Thank you.
Next we have Question No. 3 from Mr Machete, which reads as follows:
“Mr Machete,
Noting with satisfaction that in his reply to the written
question put by Mr Hengel in the Luxembourg Parliament on Recommendation 821
of the Council of Europe Assembly, in which he analysed the political
situation in Europe, the Prime Minister and Minister for Foreign
Affairs of the Luxembourg Government stressed that in the future
role of the Council of Europe, the safeguard and development of
human rights and fundamental freedoms was a priority issue;
Welcoming the fact that, in a message to the Committee of
Ministers of the Council of Europe at their 61st Session on 24 November
1977, Mr Henri Simonet, Minister for Foreign Affairs of Belgium,
stated that the sphere of human rights should continue to be the
Council of Europe’s ‘visiting card’ adding that it was not enough
that it should be affirmed and strengthened vis-à-vis member states
but that it should show Europe’s true face to the outside world,
that it should be one of the main channels whereby Europe took part
in the action being conducted at world-wide level for the defence
of human rights;
Noting with interest the favourable reception given by the
Committee of Ministers to the Belgium proposal,
To ask the Chairman of the Committee of Ministers:
a. to what extent the role of the Council of Europe continues
to have priority in the field of human rights among its twenty members
states, especially with regard to the increased activity by the
European Community in this same field of human rights;
b. what practical steps will be taken by the Committee of
Ministers to give effect to the Belgium proposal that the Council
of Europe should be one of the main channels through which the European
democracies contribute towards world action in the defence of human
rights.”
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
First, let me
congratulate Mr Machete on being so well informed about the debates in
the Luxembourg Parliament. It is always a pleasure when one comes
across this. (Smiles)
In my reply to Mr Hengel’s written question on Recommendation 821
on the European disease I said:
“There is no intention of diminishing the role which in this
field falls naturally to the Council of Europe. According to Resolution (74) 4
on the future role of the Council of Europe, the safeguard and promotion
of human rights and fundamental freedoms are among its first priorities.
That principle appears in concrete form in the Work Programme in
the shape of action designed to extend the rights conferred by the
European Convention on Human Rights and their improved implementation.”
That is a view shared by the Committee of Ministers.
So far as concerns the activities of the European Communities
in the field of human rights, let me say first of all that there
can be no question of any competition between the two organisations.
One proof of this seems to me to be the joint declaration on the
safeguard of human rights and fundamental freedoms adopted last
year by the European Communities’ three institutions. As you know,
that declaration refers explicitly to the European Convention on
Human Rights, which thus constitutes the common “bible” of the Council
of Europe and the Communities.
I think the Council of Europe has every reason to congratulate
itself on this development. I am sure that the Nine, like the rest
of the states belonging to the Council, are not blind either to
its achievements or to its future role as promoter of those rights
which the statute has fixed as its aim.
It is in this connection that I think we should consider the
very interesting proposals put forward through his Ambassador at
the 61st meeting of the Committee of Ministers by my Belgian colleague,
Mr Henri Simonet. Basically, they are a recognition of the Council’s
role in the human rights field, a role to which our member states
should give increasing weight as an element in their international
relations.
Our Committee is giving serious consideration to the follow-up
action to be taken on those proposals. I have myself already agreed
to the action suggested but I am not at the moment in a position
to give you details. I hope, however, to be able to do so between
now and the next session during which I shall have the pleasure of
being with you again.
THE PRESIDENT
The fourth
question is from Mr Karasek and reads as follows:
“Mr Karasek,
Noting that proposals for a programme for Community action
in the cultural sector have recently been submitted to the Council
by the Commission of the European Communities,
To ask the Chairman of the Committee of Ministers whether
he can give assurances that:
the competence of the Council of Europe in the cultural field
will continue to be recognised within EEC, not simply on the level
of research but also in practical measures;
EEC Ministers, when they come to consider the recent proposals,
will take due account of the role of the Council of Europe in the
cultural field.”
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
On 22 November
1977, the Commission of the European Communities sent the Council
a communication entitled “Community action in the cultural sector”
which will be considered by the Council once opinions on it have
been received from the Economic and Social Committee and the European Parliament.
The communication in no way suggests formulation of a cultural policy,
as is obvious from its definition of the cultural sector as “the
body of persons and organisations concerned in the production and distribution
of cultural goods and services”.
It is the duty of our Community to apply the Treaty of Rome
in this, as in all other sectors. The Commission’s proposals include
free exchange of cultural goods, freedom of movement and establishment
for workers in the cultural field, harmonisation of taxation in
respect of such matters as, for example, VAT, and also harmonisation of
legislation, especially that affecting copyright.
The action suggested is therefore mainly economic, and to
a certain extent social. As such, it is not likely to involve duplication
with the Council of Europe’s work which is somewhat different, having
a wider and, I might say, nobler aim. So far as I know, moreover,
cooperation between Council and Commission at Secretariat level is
all that could be wished. There is a great deal to be done in the
cultural field and any and every initiative will be welcome. In
saying that I am speaking for the Council. We have to guard against
the risk of the economic and social crisis in the cultural sector
degenerating into a cultural crisis which is something that the
Council of Europe and the Community, each according to its capacity
and jurisdiction must work together to prevent.
Mr KARASEK (Austria) (translation)
Thank you, Mr Minister,
for answering that question.
Nevertheless I still feel somewhat doubtful about the danger
of duplication, for example in the case of copyright already referred
to, where the Council of Europe has already done a certain amount
of preliminary work and should be made responsible for achieving
a European agreement on as wide a scale as possible. It would be very
helpful if an arrangement could be reached on some division of the
tasks with the Communities.
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
I think that
is less a supplementary question by Mr Karasek, Mr President, than
a statement. I am bound to admit that he has touched on what is
the sensitive point, where friction may develop between the two.
I will note what he says and also do my best, so far as I can, to
see that consideration is given to this matter.
THE PRESIDENT
Thank you,
Mr Minister. The fifth question is by Mr Ménard and reads as follows:
“Mr Ménard,
Considering that the Committee of Ministers, supported by
the Assembly of the Council of Europe, has adopted a European Convention
on the Suppression of Terrorism;
Noting that the Council of Ministers of the Nine is at present
apparently drafting a similar agreement;
Recalling that the nine member states of the European Economic
Community are also members of the Council of Europe,
To ask the Chairman of the Committee of Ministers, bearing
in mind his leading and practical role in promoting EEC;
a. what exact necessities have made it desirable for such
a text to be prepared by the Community, whereas certain members
of the Nine have expressed their great satisfaction with the European
convention, as witnessed by the fact that the ratification procedure
is practically complete;
b. whether he considers that this step is likely to make relations
between the Nine and the Twenty as harmonious, trustful and effective
as they ought to be.”
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
As Chairman-in-Office
of the Committee of Ministers I can only express my great satisfaction
at the action taken by the Council for the suppression of terrorism,
especially the opening for signature of the convention to which
Mr Ménard has referred. Unfortunately, it is not quite true to say
that the ratification procedure is practically complete, but I think
I am right in saying that, in addition to the two governments which
have already deposited their instruments of ratification, several
others, including the members of the Community, are preparing to
ratify it in the near future, a fact which I can only welcome.
So far as relates to the draft Community agreement, it seems
to me that, provided it is fully in line with the European convention
and does not hinder the application of the latter by the largest
possible number of Council of Europe members, it could facilitate
implementation of the purpose of the convention.
May I remind you also that the European Parliament has twice
expressed itself in favour of ratification of the European convention
by the governments of the Nine. I would add that, as you know, one
member of the Community has not signed the Council of Europe convention
but there are grounds for hope that the work being
done by the Nine will have the further advantage of enabling
a formula to be found which the country concerned will also' be
able to accept.
Mr MÉNARD (France) (translation)
Thank you for
your reply, Mr Minister. It is very satisfactory, because I was
a little worried before. There appeared to be some disagreement
or lack of co-ordination between the Committee of Ministers of the
Twenty and the Council of Ministers of the Nine. But your reply,
I think, shows that that is not the case. Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT
Thank you
very much, Mr Ménard. The sixth question is by Mr Pelletier and
reads as follows:
“Mr Pelletier,
Noting that the recent case-law of the Court of Justice of
the European Communities following the precedent set by the judgment
in the Nolde case, and the recent proceedings of the European Parliament,
illustrated in particular by the Scelba Report on special rights,
tend to show that the defence of human rights is regarded more and
more as coming within the competence of Community institutions;
Noting that this trend was formally confirmed by a joint declaration
made on 5 April 1977 by the European Parliament, Council and Commission,
To ask the Chairman of the Committee of Ministers;
a. if he does not think that the creation of two distinct
courts of law with overlapping powers is likely to raise certain
problems;
b. if he does not also think that, since the application procedure,
the powers of decision and the case-law of both courts are quite
distinct, it will be necessary sooner or later to tackle this problem
at the root and to define in greater detail how competence is to
be shared out in a field where the European Court of Human Rights
in Strasbourg has, after all, proved its worth for a quarter of
a century.”
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
I think it would
be wrong of me, Mr President, to reply, as the honourable member has
invited me to do, in terms of the “jurisdiction” – or perhaps he
was even thinking in terms of “competition” – of the Community,
on the one hand, and the Council of Europe, on the other. On the
contrary, as Chairman-in-Office of the Committee of Ministers, I
have to welcome the support given by the Community institutions
to the European Convention on Human Rights, whether in the form
of the joint declaration by the organs of the Community issued on
5 April last, the resolution on special rights adopted by the European
Parliament last November, or the case law of the Court of Justice.
The ultimate point at issue here is the penetration of the
Community judicial system by the principles that have emerged in
the Council of Europe and are enshrined in the European Convention
on Human Rights which, let me stress, constitutes and will, I feel
sure, continue to constitute the typical bond linking all the members
of the Council, whether or not they also belong to the European
Economic Community, and whatever the developments that may take
place at Community level.
I have to admit to my friend, Mr Pelletier that if the present
trend were to be confirmed, it might one day create certain legal
problems of a technical nature but for the moment any such problems
are hypothetical only.
In any case, for a long time now the members of the Court
of Justice of the Community and of the Court of Human Rights have
been in regular contact with each other and I know that contact
is also maintained with the appropriate sections of the Council
of Europe and Brussels Commission Secretariats. I think we may all congratulate
ourselves on that.
Mr PELLETIER (France) (translation)
While thanking
the Chairman of the Committee of Ministers for his reply, I still
think there may be a long-term problem here. For some time now we
have been watching the gradual extension of the jurisdiction of
the European Communities’ Court. For my own part I welcome this,
because it proves that despite various obstacles the integration
of the nine Community countries is gradually making headway.
All the same, I think some difficulties may ultimately arise
from the existence of two distinct Courts whose powers already overlap
and will overlap more and more in future. Sooner or later, it seems
to me that this basic problem will have to be tackled and the powers
of the respective Courts in a field in which the Strasbourg European
Court of Human Rights has proved its worth for nearly a quarter
of a century will have to be defined more clearly. I firmly believe
it to be the duty of the Committee of Ministers, under the leadership
of its dynamic Chairman, to waste no time in examining this problem.
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
Mr President,
you will understand that I have nothing to add to what Mr Pelletier
has just said. I can only tell him that I am alive to the problem
and that if there were the slightest danger of the kind he seems
to apprehend – and the possibility cannot a priori be excluded –
then the matter is one that would require to be dealt with both
by the Council of Europe’s Committee of Ministers and by the Council
of Ministers of the Community.
Speaking for myself, I intend to do everything in my power
to have it considered and to prevent overlapping.
THE PRESIDENT
Thank you,
Mr Minister.
I remind the Assembly that we have seven more questions and
two members who wish to participate in the debate, with three minutes
each. It is impossible. Members will understand that even if they
are very brief not all our colleagues who have asked to speak will
have an opportunity to get an answer from the Chairman of the Committee
of Ministers. I call Mr Péridier.
Mr PÉRIDIER (France) (translation)
My question relates
to Cyprus but, as you will see, from a rather special angle.
Can you tell me why it is that Cyprus, which is a member of
the Council of Europe in exactly the same way as Luxembourg and
all the other countries represented in the Council; which participates
in the Committee of Ministers in the person of Mr Christophides,
its Minister for Foreign Affairs; which has an office here and which contributed
to the cost of this building in which we are so happily settled;
why it is that Cyprus, a member of the Council, has not the right
to come here and defend its policy and its interests as Turkey is
able to do today?
THE PRESIDENT
That is
really a question not for the Committee of Ministers but for the
Bureau of the Assembly. I hope you will understand that giving an
answer to it will consume all the time for further questions, as
there are seven more questions still to be asked.
Mr PÉRIDIER (translation)
The
Committee of Ministers has the right to intervene with the Bureau,
Mr President, because the Bureau has never so far explained to us
the reasons for this interdiction on a country which is a member
of the Council of Europe.
THE PRESIDENT
If the Chairman
of the Committee of Ministers wishes to answer the question, we
have nothing against that.
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
Mr President,
what I wished to tell the Assembly, which is well aware of the limitations
on the competence of the Committee of Ministers of which it has
had frequent occasion to complain, on the whole justifiably, – what
I wished to tell it was that it ought to know that what you have
just said is true and that the question raised by the honourable
member – not, I think, for the first time as I have heard him before
on the subject to which he attaches great importance – that that
question does not come within the competence of the Committee of
Ministers. At the level of our Committee, Cyprus is represented.
As you have just said, there have been difficulties preventing the
Assembly from approving the credentials of the Cyprus delegation.
That had nothing to do with the Committee of Ministers and I really
do not see how the Assembly, or any of its members, can ask the
Committee to intervene in a matter that comes within the competence
of the Assembly itself when on numerous other occasions its tendency
would quite justifiably be to do the exact opposite. So do not ask
me to do something for which you would only be blaming me tomorrow.
Speaking for myself and, I am sure, for my nineteen colleagues
as well, what we should like to see would be the two ethnic communities
succeeding, with your help, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Assembly,
in coming to an agreement that would enable you to approve the credentials
of a delegation from Cyprus. That is my own desire. It would be
in line with our Statute and with our wishes, but it is not my fault
that it is not at the moment the case.
Sir Frederic BENNETT (United Kingdom)
If I may
ask my question in two parts, I give an undertaking that there will
be no supplementary question.
We know that up until now at the Helsinki meetings at Belgrade
there have been certain attempts to achieve a consensus of approach
by the EEC countries.
Has there also been an attempt by the Committee of Ministers
of the Council of Europe to achieve some kind of consensus? Does
the Minister think that the voice of the Committee of
Ministers in international meetings of this sort would be
strengthened if there were a directly elected Assembly here, as
opposed to an appointed one?
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
At Helsinki
and Belgrade there was the kind of consultation you mention between the
governments of the Nine but we also tried both through our representatives
and at Committee of Minister level to achieve a consensus between
the twenty governments; at the level, that is to say, to which you
refer. As could be seen from Mr Kirchschläger’s speech this morning
and the questions put to him, the Assembly includes various so-called
aligned countries, other non-aligned countries and others again
which are neutral but nevertheless faithful adherents, with the
rest of us, to the Council of Europe. We are trying at governmental level
to arrive at a common position and we are all remaining in contact.
With regard to your second point, may I ask you to explain
it a little more clearly?
Sir Frederic BENNETT
When I said that I would not ask a supplementary question,
I was trying to expedite the business.
Would the Committee of Ministers find themselves threatened
in adopting a common approach to problems such as this if there
were an elected, as opposed to an appointed, Assembly?
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
Speaking for
myself, I do not think that would alter the dimensions of the problem.
I heard the question put to Mr Kirchschläger this morning about
a new election and I think some members of the Community are already
running into enough difficulties over elections to the European
Parliament without our adding any more by asking them to elect other
Assemblies as well. If tomorrow we were going to have to elect the
Benelux Assembly, the European Parliament, the Council of Europe
Assembly and the NATO Assembly, it really would be a bit too much.
When an assembly has a power of decision vis-à-vis the executive
it is essential that it be elected. But the question, however interesting,
has not got the same importance in the case of assemblies which
have no such power.
Mr CHRISTIANSEN (Denmark)
I wish to ask
the Minister what will happen to the Council of Europe draft recommendation
relating to the security of foreign correspondents. My information
is that there is no possibility of resuming this. If that is the
case, would the Minister remit it to the CSCE Basket 3?
Finally, as a member of the Community, has the Minister any
suggestions on the final date for elections to the European Parliament?
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
So far as the
Council of Europe is concerned, a draft European convention on foreign correspondents
was examined by the Ministers’ Deputies early in 1977. It was then
sent to the Steering Committee on Human Rights to be finally settled.
The Committee of Ministers will certainly keep the Assembly informed
of subsequent developments.
Speaking as Minister for Foreign Affairs of Luxembourg, I
regard the matter as one of those which needs further discussion
by the countries at the Belgrade Conference. Such problems as may
exist in connection with press correspondents are mainly due to
the restrictive policies of certain of the countries making up the
Thirty-five. The aim for which we should work in the widest possible
European framework is to ensure that those policies are abandoned
and the protection of press correspondents secured.
You ended with a question about the possible date of the European
elections. As Prime Minister of Luxembourg I am particularly badly
placed to reply to that; others of my colleagues would be in a better
position to do so. Not being a crystal-gazer, I cannot tell you
when those elections will take place but the nine heads of government
will have to consider the questions at the next meeting of the European
Council and decide on a new date.
Know only that your humble servant would like it to be as
soon as possible.
Mr RADIUS (France) (translation)
During your visit
to Vienna you said the Council of Europe had a special role as an intermediary
in the East-West dialogue. I have three questions on that I would
like to put to you:
Do you think that role has been sufficiently emphasised so
far?
Do you not think that our debate last year should have begun
with some constructive contacts between members of East and West
parliaments?
In your opinion, has the Committee of Ministers given evidence
of enough political determination and initiative to make an effective
contribution towards détente?
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
If I have understood
my friend Mr Radius correctly, he is trying to tell me tactfully
that Ministers should do less talking. May I inform him that when
I was questioned by journalists in Vienna, I indicated quite frankly
what I regarded as the spheres which offered most scope for the
development of Council of Europe activities as compared with the
Communities and other institutions where everyone is trying to discover
a part to play.
Mr Radius ought not to ask me to express an opinion on the
value of the Assembly’s activities. That is something for the Assembly
itself to do.
This larger Europe which you represent, which we were talking
about this morning and which includes neutral and non-aligned countries
and others as well, should try if it wants to – this is still my
personal opinion – to formulate clearly its policy, views and objectives.
If the Assembly wants to go further than that and become more than
a bridge between various countries, it will find the necessary ways
and means of doing so.
Personally, I shall encourage it to do this for just so long
as we all remain believers in détente and an open policy towards
other countries but also – let there be no misunderstanding about
this – believers in strict adherence to the principles we hold in
common and which we have no intention of allowing to be watered
down.
Mr MÜLLER (Federal Republic of Germany) (translation)
Mr Chairman,
you have already said that European direct elections might act as
a stimulant. My concrete question is: have the fixing of a date
for these direct elections and the repeated postponement of that
date been beneficial or harmful to the movement towards unity?
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
Mr Müller, like
any intelligent man, only puts questions to which he already knows the
answers. (Laughter)
Once it had been decided that European elections were necessary,
essential, and would reinforce European unity, the refusal to organise
them, or the fact of their deferment, do not strike me as particularly
likely to help in the work of European integration. Such is my unequivocal
answer to the question.
In saying this I am not trying to pass judgement as to the
reasons which have induced this or that government or sovereign
assembly not to proceed with these elections. After twenty years,
the danger lies less in deferring them for one, two or three months
than in the fact that it has taken almost twenty years to reach
agreement in principle on the subject and that, now that that agreement
has been reached, we have failed, after two more years, to put it
into practice.
What is even more serious is that there may even be a risk
of the elections themselves not being held at all because of events
which could take place in the meantime. By thus continually putting
off the practical realisation of the hopes of the European peoples,
the hopes set out in the treaty, we run the risk of making Europe
still more incomprehensible to the ordinary citizen.
THE PRESIDENT
Thank you,
Mr Minister. We have two minutes, and then the Minister has to go.
It is not sensible to start a debate when the Minister will only
hear part of the first speech. I think it is reasonable to say that
we shall have the debate on the next possible occasion, but not
today. Is that the opinion of the Assembly? It is impossible to
have a speech and an answer by the Minister in two minutes. I call
Mr Coutsocheras.
Mr COUTSOCHERAS (Greece) (translation)
Mr President,
may the sitting continue for long enough to allow the Prime Minister
of Luxembourg to answer the question I have put to him in my capacity
as Greek Representative?
THE PRESIDENT
We can continue,
but the Minister has to go. I explained that before. We cannot detain him.
Mr COUTSOCHERAS (Translation) (translation)
In your speech
you proclaimed your belief in the defence of human rights, Mr Minister.
Since the decision reached by the Committee of Ministers on
21 October 1977 as to what action it should take on the report by
the Commission of Human Rights regarding the violation of the European
convention by the Turkish authorities in Cyprus, examination of
the matter has been suspended for a period of nine months. No decision
has been taken on the report although it was submitted to the Committee
a year ago.
Mr Minister, does not the attitude adopted strike you as entirely
contrary to both the spirit and the letter of Article 32 of the
convention? Moreover, since it was prompted by political considerations,
does it not seriously undermine the safeguards we have established
for human rights as well as damaging both the prestige and effectiveness
of the Council of Europe itself?
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
Thank you for
all your efforts. I can only refer you to the answer I gave Mr Margue and
Mr Molin just now on the same subject.
I told you all then that discussion was confidential. I cannot
therefore say more. To the extent that our decision was taken in
application of, and in conformity with the Rules of Procedure, whatever
may be its consequences I cannot agree that it is contrary to the
spirit of those rules. It is not.
For the rest, let me repeat that I refer you to the explanation
I gave just now. I remain at your disposal and I hope to be able
to tell you more at our next meeting.
THE PRESIDENT
Thank you.
Mr Chairman of the Committee of Ministers, I have two speakers here,
Mr de Koster and Mr Otero Madrigal. Have you enough time?
(Mr Thorn nodded his assent.)
Mr de KOSTER (Netherlands)
I have listened
to the excellent address of the Prime Minister of Luxembourg, especially
on the harmonisation of philosophy and voting conduct in the Assembly
of the United Nations. I would like to know what kind of better
co-ordination between the member states has been decided on. A reply to
this question would allow us to check the eventual follow-up to
tomorrow’s recommendation of the Political Affairs Committee on
the question of human rights as they affect international relations.
Will the results of these exchanges of views on human rights and
connected United Nations issues be transmitted from Strasbourg to New
York and followed up there by the delegations of our member states?
Although there is often some kind of common approach and consensus
on the fundamental values underlying the public order of the member states
of the Council of Europe, our member states often vote in opposite
directions within the context of the United Nations General Assembly.
Finally, it appears to me that the large majority of the United
Nations member states is particularly keen on collective economic
and social rights, while the Council of Europe seems so far to have
given more prominence to traditional civil and political rights.
Does the Prime Minister see any practical possibilities of
our member states both increasing their concern for the protection
of economic and social rights within the Council, and maintaining
their concern for the protection of civil and political rights within
the United Nations framework?
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
My reply to
Mr de Koster must be, I think, that consultations and exchanges
of views on these political problems have taken place between Council
of Europe members but, as you may imagine, given the slight difference
in our various aims, it is, I would venture to say, harder to arrive
at common positions in the case of the Twenty than in the case of
the Nine, and that is already hard enough. However, next week, for
example, our representatives will be meeting at ambassador level
to exchange views on political problems and try to reach some common
viewpoints.
At the present stage of discussion, everything that is possible
is being done on the basis of the treaties we have signed. But I
would add that, in my own view, the repercussions are perhaps not
all they should be. Discussions are held at ministerial and ambassadorial
level as also between the Permanent Representatives, but they produce
no repercussions in the outside world, in New York, at the United
Nations, for instance.
While I have no wish to enforce any binding procedures, I
should like to suggest that my successors in the Chair of the Committee
of Ministers might at least keep their diplomatic representatives
at the United Nations or elsewhere regularly informed when they
are preparing an exchange of view so that, if such an exchange takes place
between Council of Europe members, it would at least be known about
outside, although this need not involve the adoption of detailed
positions or texts that would actually be binding on the Twenty.
This is a way in which, little by little, I think we might
improve our procedure. For myself, I have gone far enough already
in what I said just now. So we shall be able to meet your request
in the course of the discussions we shall be having on Mr Henri
Simonet’s proposals.
Mr OTERO MADRIGAL (Spain) (translation)
I am delighted
to find myself, here in this beautiful city of Strasbourg, and I should
like to thank the Council of Europe for the welcome it has given
us. I would also take this opportunity of thanking Mr Thorn, Chairman-in-Office
of the Committee of Ministers, for his friendly references to our
country and for the welcome he has extended to the Spanish delegation
to the Council.
We also wish to thank all the other members of the Assembly,
as well as to say that we shall be interpreting the feelings of
the Spanish delegates here – and I think I am speaking for all our
political parties here represented – when we say we support everything
Mr Thorn has said about strengthening Europe.
At this moment, as at every other decisive moment in history,
Europe has need of all our goodwill and all our imagination if she
is to follow the road that other great Europeans have traced out
for us. Yesterday, one of my compatriots was quoting Mr Monnet and
Mr de Madariaga. As Spaniards, we intend to do everything we can to
foster in every country the idea of a united Europe.
Mr Thorn, Prime Minister of Luxembourg (translation)
I thank the
honourable member, and also you yourself, Mr President.