THE PRESIDENT
Thank you,
Prime Minister, for your most interesting address. Members of the
Assembly have questions to put to you. I remind them that questions
must be limited to 30 seconds and no more; colleagues should be
asking questions, not making speeches.
The first question is from Mr Vareikis of Lithuania, on behalf
of the Group of the European People’s Party.
Mr VAREIKIS (Lithuania), Spokesperson for the Group of the European People’s Party
As the President said, I am from Lithuania, a Baltic State.
Prime Minister, 25 years ago your country was the most active promoter
of integrating that region into the European structure. It was a
geopolitical idea from Denmark. What kind of geopolitical ideas
have you now? Are you promoting the integration of some other regions
into Western Europe as soon as possible, as you did for us a quarter
of a century ago?
Mr Løkke Rasmussen, Prime Minister of Denmark
Thank you for that question.
I think I should stick to a short answer. Our approach is still
exactly the same as it was years ago. I am truly a believer in an
integrated Europe. I represent a small country with an open, market-oriented
economy and we have gained all our prosperity through interaction
with our neighbouring countries. That is exactly why I think we
should put more emphasis on solving these challenges, which are
common challenges. It is also why we should put more effort, especially
in the European Union, into securing our external borders, because
if we do so we can continuously work towards a more open and integrated
Europe.
Ms STRIK (Netherlands), Spokesperson for the Socialists, Democrats and Greens Group
Prime Minister, you mentioned the importance of an effective
human rights system. Do you agree that independent interpretation
and application of the Convention by the Court is a crucial condition
for that? In several member States, we are now seeing the concerning
results of the loss of independence of judges. Can you ensure that your
proposals refrain from putting any form of pressure on the Court?
What concrete measures do you propose to solve the practical challenges
that you referred to, such as lack of compliance or implementation
of case law by member States?
Mr Løkke Rasmussen, Prime Minister of Denmark
I can assure you that I am a
total believer in an independent judicial system. That is why we
have engaged so much in this discussion. It goes without saying that
the Court is challenged by a heavy caseload, which is a problem
that we have to solve, as I mentioned in my speech. Among many problems,
I draw your attention to the fact that some member States have not embedded
the Convention in their own national judicial systems. That is a
crucial point of interest. It is why the whole idea of shared responsibility
and a closer dialogue between the Court and member States is so
crucial.
Mr HENRIKSEN (Denmark), Spokesperson for the European
Conservatives Group
It is good to see you here today,
Prime Minister. On behalf of my group, I have two questions. First,
will you kindly inform the Assembly how far the Danish Government
has got in its approach of securing the endorsement of a different interpretation
of the European Convention on Human Rights to make it easier for
member States to deport criminal immigrants, as well as securing
member States’ right to a national agenda in legal and immigration matters?
Secondly, will you give your assessment of the development of the
human rights situation in Russia and Ukraine?
Mr Løkke Rasmussen, Prime Minister of Denmark
In addition to what I mentioned
in my speech, I can tell you that we recently facilitated a high-level
expert conference in Kokkedal, a city close to Copenhagen. We invited
member States for an open and constructive debate on key issues.
Thirty-nine member States took part, which I interpret as a clear
commitment from member States to moving forward. It is our intention
to move forward with negotiating; hopefully, we will adopt a declaration
in April or May in Copenhagen. Our ambition is to adopt a political
declaration that takes stock of the current reform process, proposes
new measures to strengthen the Convention system and provides guidelines
for further reform work.
One of our many ideas is to make it easier for member States
to intervene in cases before the Court and argue their case. That
is a specific priority for us. Just this morning I had the opportunity
to discuss with the President of the Court what we are doing. I
see absolutely no conflict. Everybody is eager to protect the human
rights system, but we have to solve different challenges at the
same time. They include not only the Court’s caseload but the fact
that, as I mentioned, we should give greater room to manoeuvre to
those countries that actually fulfil their human rights obligations.
That leads me to a short answer to your last question. Without
going into details, let me say that it is obvious that we are faced
with the reality that human rights are violated in some member States
in some specific areas. On Ukraine, the human rights of all people
in Crimea must be secured, in accordance with the relevant Council of
Europe instruments, particularly the European Convention on Human
Rights. All parties must display constructive engagement with that,
and I express my full support for the Secretary General in his endeavours. Let
me add to that by saying that Denmark is very much engaged in Ukraine
and has taken the lead in promoting good governance and the rule
of law there. As I have said, there are still challenges linked
to that.
Mr BILDARRATZ (Spain), Spokesperson for the Alliance of
Liberals and Democrats for Europe (interpretation)
Prime Minister,
some years ago Denmark decided to undergo an institutional reform
and I would like to know about its effectiveness, especially in
terms of the identity of democracy; we are even talking about changing constituencies.
You always affirm that one has to look after people from the closest
institutions. So how, 10 years later, do you assess the result of
the institutional reforms? After the Gothenburg Agreement, and in
the new social plan, is it possible to complement the social policies
that you pursue with the new social pillar created by the European
Union?
Mr Løkke Rasmussen, Prime Minister of Denmark
I am not convinced I am answering
the right question, but I can reflect on the social pillar. Being
Prime Minister in what I regard as a well-functioning social nation
with a long tradition of providing equality and opportunities, I
think this European debate about social cohesion is of great relevance.
It was a good and important step forward that we had this meeting
in Gothenburg a couple of months ago, where we agreed in principle
about social guidelines. We now have to implement these ideas. In
order to do so, we need a fully fledged strategy, because this is
also about competitiveness, closing the skills gap and labour market
reforms – it ain’t easy. The most important signal I could give
today would be to say that we cannot ensure this only by a decision
taken in Brussels or in Strasbourg; each nation State has a responsibility
here and there is some homework to be done. I am proud that in Denmark
we have a long tradition of bringing all the social partners to
the negotiating table. Most recently we have adopted tripartite
agreements, which will perhaps serve as an example to be followed
in other countries. If we do not solve problems that are close to
people, where we are talking about the challenges linked to migration
or unemployment and, in particular, youth employment, we will lose
the support of the people. This is indeed an important question,
and I thank you for drawing my attention to it.
Mr CROWE (Ireland), Spokesperson for the Group of the Unified European Left
Prime Minister, the European Union has established the Permanent
Structured Cooperation – PESCO. My party, Sinn Féin, opposed the
creation of PESCO, because we believe it will further militarise
the European Union, which is unnecessary, and will create a European
army, which is unwanted and dangerous. For those reasons, and because
it would undermine Ireland’s policy of neutrality, we campaigned
against Ireland’s involvement in PESCO. Denmark has opted out of
PESCO, an approach I very much support. Can you explain the Danish people’s
particular concerns about joining this European military alliance?
Mr Løkke Rasmussen, Prime Minister of Denmark
I am afraid I will disappoint
you a bit, because personally and politically I am in favour of
Europe taking greater responsibility in this area of security, given
the new security situation in our neighbourhood. For legal reasons,
Denmark cannot participate in this, because we have a legally binding
opt-out on European Union defence policy. We would need a referendum
if we were to opt in instead of opt out, and I do not think this
is the time for referendums. So you cannot interpret the fact that
we are not joining PESCO as a signal that Denmark is against this
idea; we are a core member of NATO. The new Administration in the
White House and the security situation in our neighbourhood, about
which I will not go into details, mean it is obvious that Europe
must pay more attention to this area. Given that Denmark is a NATO
member and a member of the European Union with this legally binding
opt-out, my priority is to ensure that we do not copy and paste
capacity within the NATO framework and within the European Union
framework; we have to make sure that the European strategy creates
real added value to what is already going on in NATO.
Ms GAMBARO (Italy), Spokesperson for the Free Democrats Group
Prime
Minister, we appreciate your strong commitment to human rights and
the Council of Europe’s core values. How do you think the Council
of Europe could bring all member States together into a common place
where human rights are respected in the same way?
Mr Løkke Rasmussen, Prime Minister of Denmark
I do not think there is an easy
answer to that question. A lot of hard work is being done and we
should continue what is already going on – meetings such as this
one, with a conversation and dialogue such as this one. Again, I
refer to my first intervention and this whole idea of bringing not
only experts but politicians together in an open-minded dialogue
about how we should create and protect the best possible European
human rights protection system. All of us need to speak out when
we see violations of human rights. I will stick to that; it would
be nice if I could invent some shortcut, but there is no shortcut
– we just have to continue the hard work. I admire the job done
in this body, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe.
If we look in the history books, we see they are full of concrete
examples of people who have gained freedom and had a much better
life due to interventions from members of this body. You should
take this as a strong signal to continue what you are already doing.
THE PRESIDENT
That was
the last question on behalf of the political groups. We now continue
with the speaker’s list, and we will have groups of three questions.
Ms DURANTON (France) (interpretation)
Out of 175 States ranked, Denmark
has for several years been No. 1 on Transparency International’s
corruption perceptions index. Congratulations on that. How do you
explain that situation, and how could Denmark help other countries
to make progress in combating corruption?
Mr HOWELL (United
Kingdom)
It was highlighted in the press recently
that Denmark pays millions of krone annually for mistaken arrests
and detention. Would you like to comment on the Danish justice system
and the country’s preparedness to deal with terrorism?
Mr SCHWABE (Germany) (interpretation)
The debate on the Council of Europe’s
human rights mission is not new. The Court has been discussed, and
we need to look at what has happened. One of the Assembly’s most
important tasks is to protect the European Court of Human Rights,
and we have to meet that challenge. What can the Committee of Ministers
do to better support the Court?
Mr Løkke Rasmussen, Prime Minister of Denmark
First, I will give a short response
to our colleague from the United Kingdom. I think you will find
the answer in Denmark’s very well-functioning judicial system. That
leads me to my answer to the last question. It could hopefully serve
as an example for others to follow. That is why I am so engaged
in the idea of shared responsibilities between the national and
European level, so that we can at the European level concentrate
our resources and energy on countries that are really challenged.
Ms Duranton asked about Denmark’s position with regard to
corruption. There is a national and an international angle to the
answer. On a domestic level, you will find the answer in the transparency
of Danish society. Denmark is a small country, with only 5.8 million
people, and it is very well organised. A couple of years ago we
made structural administrative reforms, emphasising efficiency at
the municipal and regional levels. The smallness of our country,
the fact that our system is so well organised and perhaps also the
fact that Denmark is an equal society in comparison with other societies
are the reasons behind the fact that we are No. 1 on that list,
which I am proud of. That also gives us an obligation to reach out
at an international level. We have done so and will continue to
do so. The fight against corruption is a fight in favour of personal
freedom and the possibilities of taxpayers and people in our societies.
Mr De BRUYN (Belgium)
I would like to express my appreciation for the plans by the
Danish chairmanship to hold a conference on the theme of “Private
and family life: achieving equality regardless of sexual orientation”
as an adjunct to the meeting of the PACE Committee on Equality and
Non-Discrimination in Copenhagen in March. On other fronts, there
have been serious setbacks to the rights of LGBTI people in some European
countries, particularly in Chechnya, Azerbaijan and more recently
in Turkey. What steps does Denmark, as chair of the Committee of
Ministers, consider can be taken by the Council of Europe to address those
issues?
Mr SØNDERGAARD (Denmark)
In your speech, you mentioned the
lack of implementation of the Court’s rulings, but what concretely
does the Danish chairmanship plan to do about that? What is its
concrete proposal? Will that be part of the Copenhagen Declaration
that the Prime Minister plans to get approved by the end of the
Danish chairmanship?
Ms SCHOU (Norway)
One of your priorities for the chairmanship is to stimulate
the involvement of children and youth in democracy. I fully support
that goal. Education on democratic citizenship and human rights
is a prequisite for upholding and strengthening the European human
rights system in a future Europe. What is your main initiative to
strengthen the involvement of children and youth? Is the European
Wergeland Centre a central part of that goal?
Mr Løkke Rasmussen, Prime Minister of Denmark
Thank you for three very important
questions. I apologise that I will probably not be able, within
the time I have, to answer them in detail.
The first question was about LGBTI+ people. Fighting in favour
of tolerance and protecting minorities’ right to live their own
life is probably the most important thing. That is basically what
Europe and civilisation is all about. That is a key priority for
Denmark, not only in relation to our chairmanship but in many other
areas. I am proud that Denmark has been chosen to facilitate WorldPride
and the big European sport event related to it in a few years’ time.
Even though we have come a long way, we still have challenges
– perhaps not so much in our legal system, but among people. If
we want to promote equal opportunities for everybody and the right
to live your own life, it is not only about political initiatives
and new legislation. It is also about continuing dialogue and debate.
That is going on in this very body, and I very much support that.
I encourage you to continue to voice public criticism when countries
systematically violate the human rights of LGBTI+ persons – for
instance, by banning Pride events.
To my colleague from the Danish Parliament, Mr Søndergaard,
I say that, yes, there is a lack of willingness in certain countries.
I am not in a position here to point the finger, but I just mention
the very obvious fact that there is a challenge that we have to
face if we want a more efficient human rights protection system
in Europe. That is among the things that we are going to discuss
in the lead-up to the meeting in Copenhagen. I discussed with the
President today the whole idea of how we can secure the embedding
of the Convention in national judicial systems. That is among the
answers to that question. We have to follow that up and find ways
of including it in our final declaration.
Children’s education and gender equality are among the five
priorities of our chairmanship and, as Her Royal Highness the Crown
Princess mentioned yesterday, together with this Assembly, we will
organise a conference in Copenhagen focusing on good practice and
inclusive policies on family and private life for same-sex couples. We
will facilitate a seminar entitled “Democratic culture: from words
to action” in April in Copenhagen. That will be based on the Council
of Europe toolbox for teaching democratic citizens. I totally agree
that everything starts in childhood and we should give our youngsters
– the next European generation – the tools with which they can act
and live in a democratic society. That is also a way to avoid radicalisation,
to ensure integration and to understand that people can be different;
we have just discussed the LGBTI question but others could also
be mentioned. It is a way forward to overcome these differences
among people.
Ms HOFFMANN (Hungary) (interpretation)
Illegal immigration and parallel
societies resulting from that phenomenon constitute a serious risk
to security and a major challenge to European societies. We need
a strict and systematic immigration policy, such as Hungary and
Denmark have applied, to protect European citizens. Through what
means could you successfully reduce illegal immigration so as to
guarantee citizens’ security?
Mr ZINGERIS (Lithuania)
Thank you Prime Minister for your broad and concise answers.
I have two tiny questions. One is related to this Assembly. In 1960,
the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, led by the
chair of the Danish delegation, Madame Lowzow, passed a resolution
on not recognising the occupation of the Baltic countries. How will
we preserve her memory? She was a prominent figure in European life
who died in 1986. We need such Europeans to be remembered as examples.
Ms De SUTTER (Belgium)
We have heard you pleading for reform
of the European human rights system. You want to make it easier
for member States to intervene directly in Court cases and call
it “shared responsibility”. But can you address the fear that this
could risk the deterioration of the human rights system, leading
to the belief that human rights are not universal but subject to
the subsidiarity principle, which could lead to cherry-picking?
Mr Løkke Rasmussen, Prime Minister of Denmark
The principles are universal.
There is no discussion about that. I thank Ms De Sutter for raising
that question because it gives me an opportunity to emphasise that. I
put absolutely no question mark over the fact that human rights
are universal, and in this pan-European context. We should discuss
with an open mind how to establish the best system to ensure that
these rights are fulfilled and that people are protected in reality.
In that discussion, it is a fact that there is a severe case load right
now. We should try to solve that problem. One way, among others,
is to engage the national level more. That is the original concept:
human rights should be implemented at national level. But in reality,
if you look at member States, you will see clear differences between
them. Some member States produce many cases to the European Court,
some produce fewer. You cannot just conclude that the countries
with the big backlog of cases are necessarily the ones with the
biggest problems. It could also be linked to the fact that, at national level,
for technical reasons or owing to tradition or whatever, they do
not take the Convention into account in the proper way.
If there is closer working between the national level and
the Court and – excuse my bad English – we could teach these countries
better to integrate or implement the Convention, we could avoid
cases at European level. We could then move our focus to the cases
where we have severe problems. It is crucial to state that the rights are
universal but there is shared responsibility for ensuring that they
are fulfilled in reality.
To my Lithuanian friend, may I say that I am fully aware of
the remarkable role Marie-Antoinette von Lowzow played in history,
when your country did not have the same freedom and democracy that
it has today. I am very grateful to you for bringing her name up.
You asked about how to preserve her memory, but you did exactly that
by drawing the attention of the Assembly to her many achievements,
one of which was her work on the resolution about the situation
of the Baltic States under the Iron Curtain.
Finally, I come to the big question raised by Ms Hoffmann.
I fully agree that in order to ensure social and cultural cohesion
in Europe, we have to find ways to solve illegal migration to Europe.
There is no quick fix. We need to implement a fully fledged strategy
and, among many other things, we need to protect our external borders much
better than we do today.
Protecting our external borders is not the whole answer, however,
as we cannot solve our problems just by raising fences. We should
give more impetus to reaching out to the countries of origin and
the fight against the root causes, and that is why I find it very
promising that in the past few years we have developed our policy towards
Africa. We are not yet there, but we have developed the policy on
– this could be labelled in many different ways – this more-for-more
attitude. We must close a win-win deal with the Africans, giving
them better access to trade with Europe, even more support in capacity
building and promoting good governance, humanitarian assistance,
investment in infrastructure and so on. On the other hand, they
should promise that we can return illegal migrants to their countries
of origin. Right now, we are taking small steps in that direction.
We could do more and we could work much faster if more countries
were devoted to this. I am proud to say that I represent a country
– I think there are only five, six or seven in the world – that
fulfils the UN recommendation on aid, at 0.7% of GNI. I call for
other countries to do more, because if we take a long-term perspective
and look at the demographics, it goes without saying that unless
we create hope for the future among young Africans there will be
pressure on Europe. In the short term, there are many things you
can do. We have done a lot in Denmark. We have strengthened our
own policy, and I am proud to say that in the past year we received
the lowest number of asylum seekers and illegal migrants that we
had had in the past nine years. Much could be done at a national
level, but if we really want to solve the problem we need a totally
new partnership between Europe and Africa. That would be my answer.
THE PRESIDENT
We must
now conclude the questions to the Prime Minister. On behalf of the
Assembly, Mr Rasmussen, I thank you most warmly for your address
and the answers that you have given to the questions.