THE PRESIDENT
Thank you,
Mr Erdoğan. As you are one of the originators and co-chairs of the
Alliance of Civilisations, I thank you very much for your contribution
to this debate. I now propose to give the floor to the leaders of
the political groups, and I will then give you the opportunity to
respond. We will then continue the debate. As I mentioned at the
beginning, we will interrupt the debate shortly, at 11.15 a.m.,
to give you the opportunity to respond to the leaders of the political
groups.
I call Mr Van den Brande, who will speak on behalf of the
Group of the European People’s Party.
Mr VAN DEN BRANDE (Belgium) (interpretation)
thanked the chairman,
the rapporteur and the committee. He said the rapporteur had succeeded
in dealing with difficult issues. He thanked Mr Erdoğan and said
it was regrettable that the Prime Minister of Spain could not also
attend the debate. He said it would have been preferable if both pillars
of this initiative had been in attendance.
He said he was full of hope after listening to the Turkish
Prime Minister and he expected the principles detailed by the Prime
Minister to be upheld in Turkey. He said that Christian Democrats
believed that the individual could be individual only within society:
it was only by expressing themselves within society that the individual existed.
Freedom of expression was not just a right, it was an existential
right. It had taken four to five centuries for Europe to establish
freedom of expression and people had lost their lives in the pursuit
of this, so it was therefore necessary to defend this freedom today.
There must be no compromise between freedom of expression and any
other elements, and the question now was how freedom of expression
could be reconciled with respect for religion. He said he could
not accept the new trend for religions to belong to the private
sphere, as if they had nothing to contribute to society.
(The speaker continued in English) I
want to stress that it is not essentially a question of laws or
court sentences, but it is a question of attitudes and respect for
human dignity and tolerance. Given that the Prime Minister made
a long speech, I will finish soon. However, I want to stress that
respect leads to liberty and liberty leads to respect. So we are
in favour of this report, although we have drafted amendments because
we think we have to make rights and fundamental values compatible,
and that can be done only with a change in attitude.
THE PRESIDENT
Thank you,
Mr Van den Brande. I cannot give you or anyone else in the Chamber
more time, because a guest speaker has the right to address us and
the members of the Assembly each have four minutes. I now call Mrs Bargholtz,
who will speak on behalf of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats
for Europe.
Mrs BARGHOLTZ (Sweden)
Thank you, Mr President.
On behalf of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe,
I want to thank the rapporteur for an important and well-written
report. As she mentioned in her report, it was well timed. The socalled
“Mohammed cartoons”, which were first presented in a Danish newspaper,
have started a severe debate all over the world and led to demonstrations
in some parts. I and the ALDE Group share the same viewpoint as
the report: freedom of thought, conscience and religion, together with
freedom of expression, constitute a necessary requirement for a
democratic society. This freedom must, however, permit open debate
on matters that relate to religion and beliefs. It must also allow
respect for different religious beliefs, even if they are not shared
by all of us. The right to religious beliefs is an important human
right. “I may dislike what you say, but I am prepared to defend
with my life your right to say it.” Voltaire is supposed to have
expressed those words, and I think that they explain the true sense
of freedom of expression.
The conflict regarding the Danish cartoons showed the problem
very clearly. They were regarded as very humiliating by many Muslims
not only because they were ugly, but because it is forbidden to
reproduce a picture of the Prophet. I am quite unsympathetic to
those who deliberately hurt and humiliate people’s religious beliefs,
but I am also unsympathetic to religious people who hurt and humiliate
other people by referring to the Bible or other religious documents.
We have recently had a court case in Sweden to which much attention
has been drawn. It concerned a priest who in a religious sermon
said humiliating things about homosexuals, referring to the Bible.
He was tried in court but acquitted by the Supreme Court. The court
referred to the European Convention on Human Rights.
The Mohammed cartoons were legally published in the media.
Notwithstanding the fact that they were considered offensive, governments
must not forbid the pictures. Freedom of expression must also include making
fun of religion. That is not only a human right but a fundamental
principle in society. If such a freedom is threatened, we must without
reservation defend it, and that must be accepted by all governments.
In a free country, people must be able to write a speech within
the framework of existing laws. Some demands have been made to limit
freedom of expression on religious issues. Among others, the United
Nations Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, has suggested that western
countries should revise their legislation on offensive religious
symbols. The exact limits of freedom of expression must, of course,
be discussed among groups of different religious beliefs. Like many
others, I am convinced of the importance and possibilities of respectful
dialogue and constructive talks between all people. Spreading and
strengthening freedom of expression among all must be the best and
safest way to avoid conflict in the world.
Mr MARGELOV (Russian Federation)
I
was born in a country where communism was the only religion. I spent
my childhood, as fate would have it, in Islamic countries – in Tunisia
and Morocco – during the Cold War. Today I live in a multinational
country with a population which practises Christianity, Islam, Buddhism
and Judaism. As Russia has a long history of the co-existence of
diverse cultures, customs, religions and different ethnic groups,
I cannot say that there is anything like a war of civilisations
in my country, but there are signs of the global trend of interethnic
and inter-religious conflicts.
Some experts rather optimistically predict the outbreak of
a series of ethnic and religious wars, as others assert that such
wars have broken out already. Either way, the advance-guard action
is already under way and religious or ethnically inspired violence
is escalating around the world. There are no operational maps for
these battles; no clear dividing lines can be drawn in such stand-offs.
Lines of mutual intolerance run along the streets and through the
houses of our cities. They are cleaving regions, crossing continents
and official state borders. They are appearing everywhere where
people are divided into “us” and “them”, depending on which gods
they pray to and in which language, on the colour of their skin
and on the shape of their eyes.
The “friend or foe” division is highly sensitive, as we observed
during the riots in French suburbs and the uproar about Danish cartoons,
which provoked the indignation of the Islamic world. Discord is
penetrating all religious communities and that of Islam is no exception.
The attitude of Islamic fundamentalists towards “infidels” is simply
more evident than the less noisy intolerance of far-right Christians
towards “Christless” people. The bellicose image of Islam is due
to the fact that many of the authors of terrorist attacks are of
the Islamic faith.
Disturbingly, there are many cases of unacceptable wickedness
among religious and ethnic extremists. Periodically, synagogues
are set on fire in Europe. It is not that simple to build a mosque
in some regions of Russia. The plight of the Christian population
in Egypt leaves much to be desired. In European cities, one can see
manifestations of neo-Nazis and anti-Semitism. In the streets, persons
of colour are chased. More and more, the scuffles of youngsters
mirror inter-ethnic clashes. Some politicians are overtly propagating
inter-ethnic discord.
However, the religious and ethnically inspired divide in Europe
is incompatible with the actual cultural nucleus. That includes
an openness to various ideas, multiculturalism and tolerance towards
diverse ways of life, customs and beliefs. However, that constitutes
the “soft power” of Europe – the irresistible force of attraction that
stimulates the interest in, and sympathy for, Europe among people
from other continents. Here in the Parliamentary Assembly, representatives
of different nations and persuasions work in concert and discuss things
constructively. That proves that Edmund Burke was right in predicting
the time when every European would feel at home in any part of Europe.
Members of parliament, competent and respected experts, representatives
of non-governmental organisations and spiritual leaders of religious
communities should be involved in a dialogue about different cultures
and civilisations. Europe is ready for that.
Mr LUND (Denmark)
There cannot
be a democratic society without the fundamental right to freedom
of expression. No freedom of expression, no democracy. No freedom
of thought, no democracy. The speech made by Mrs Bargholtz was very
good and inspiring.
If you disagree with someone, you must engage in a democratic
debate. You cannot prohibit points of view that you do not like.
However, having the right to say something does not necessarily
mean that you have to say it or should say it. For example, I have
the right here today to insult everybody, but I shall not do so.
Does that mean that I have limited freedom of expression? Of course
it does not. I have my freedom, for example, to criticise the fact
that Turkey has not recognised that the Turkish state committed
genocide in Armenia in 1915, that Turkey has occupied the northern
part of Cyprus and that Turkey has committed genocide against the Kurds.
It is my right to criticise, and I will do so. The important thing
is that freedom of expression is about having a dialogue with those
who have other political points of view than mine.
The resolution must be seen in the light of the so called
cartoon crisis. I am glad that my group has given me the opportunity
to portray the decent face of Denmark. The widespread protests against
Denmark are an unmistakable sign that the political course of Denmark
and the West must fundamentally change. The protests must be seen
in the context of the general political atmosphere as well as of
western policy in the Muslim part of the world. The cartoons are
but the last symbolic straw that breaks the camel’s back.
Over the years, xenophobic views have been given more and
more space in public debate in Denmark as well as in many other
European countries. Denmark, along with other European countries,
has become known as a country that has very negative attitudes to
immigrants and refugees. It is in that context that the publication by
the Danish newspaper, Jyllands-Posten,
of the 12 cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed should be seen. The Danish
Prime Minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, and the government should
have disassociated themselves clearly from the expressed aim of
the cartoons to insult Muslims, without disputing the unreserved
freedom of expression of Jyllands-Posten.
That could have averted the crisis, but it would not have changed
the fundamental political problems that made such a crisis possible.
Western conduct is therefore part of the background to the massive
protests among Muslims.
We need to treat people from other parts of the world, with
other political beliefs and with different religious beliefs, with
respect and, to get that respect, dialogue, solidarity and other
measures are also required. We are talking about a speedy end to
the occupation of Iraq. New and efficient steps must be taken to
secure the right of the Palestinian people to a state of their own.
World trade must be changed so that the poorest countries, among
them some Muslim countries, can improve their chances of securing
independent economic development. Therefore, respect, dialogue and
solidarity means action in many fields and it is a much broader issue
than freedom of expression related to religious belief. Thank you.
Mr JURGENS (Netherlands)
I must declare
an interest. Besides being a Social Democrat, I am a Roman Catholic
and a constitutional lawyer.
The rapporteur grapples conscientiously with a central issue
of constitutional law: which right prevails if, in a specific case,
two human rights are in conflict? In this case, the two rights are
freedom of expression and freedom of religion. There is no easy
answer to that question. Freedom of religion does not create immunity
to criticism of religious beliefs. Such claims should be decisively
rejected.
As an example, we should be careful about creating legislation
that makes blasphemy as such in any way illegal. If I say in public
that an omnipotent God who allows the atrocities of the Holocaust
to occur is a terrible God, I am not being blasphemous. I am formulating
a critical religious question. Criticism is therefore good. I mean
of course normal criticism. Statements that wilfully and unnecessarily
insult or incite hatred against groups can already be subject to
legal procedures in the courts. That is a good thing, but, and I
speak as a Christian, there should be no special protection of religious
beliefs over and above other deeply felt convictions such as philosophical
humanism, the rational principles of the enlightenment or even democratic
socialism.
Amendment No. 2 is not only wrong in its interpretation of
the case law of the Court in Strasbourg but, again I speak as a
Christian, it unacceptably puts one set of beliefs, the belief in
God, above other convictions by saying that blasphemous publications
do not enjoy the freedom of the press. Debate is democratic, not prohibition
of a part of the debate.
The report is well balanced and asks for more analysis of
that difficult question. I commend Mrs Hurskainen for that. Therefore,
I deplore the fact that most of the long list of amendments tabled
by my fellow Christians belonging to the Christian Democratic group
will pull the report completely out of balance by stressing unnecessarily
the obvious limits of freedom of expression. For that reason, my
group urges the Assembly to reject those amendments.
THE PRESIDENT
Thank you,
Mr Jurgens. I now ask Prime Minister Erdoğan whether he would like
to make some comments.
Mr Erdoğan, Prime Minister of Turkey (interpretation)
thanked the previous speakers for their contributions and
said that they all agreed on the value of freedom of expression
and the need to continue fighting for it, but the key question was
whether freedom of expression should be unlimited. All societies
had some limits to freedom of expression, for historical and cultural
reasons. The central concept was respect. If respect and love for
others were promoted, then we would enhance rights.
On freedom of religion and belief, this was essential, but
it was important to distinguish between criticism and insult. Mr Lund
had suggested that we needed the right to insult, and referred to
the Armenian genocide. Was that based on fact? It was necessary
to distinguish between the Ottoman Empire and the Turkish Republic. The
Turkish position was that such matters should be left to historians
and to academic analysis. Politicians could then benefit from this.
Concerning the crisis in Denmark, Turkey had reacted differently
to every other country. Without Turkey’s approach, the situation
could have been worse. On the question of whether a God would allow
the Holocaust, Muslims believed that their God would not allow it.
Muslims loved all the created because of the creator.
THE PRESIDENT
Prime Minister,
I thank you for your direct and open response, and I thank the speakers on
behalf of the groups for their contributions. Your responses showed
that this is a forum for open discussion and dialogue. No questions
were avoided, and I sincerely hope that we can continue in a constructive
spirit to find a common approach to our future, based on our common
values. Thank you very much.